Could you extend any services to increase connectivity?

[JonathanH]

Extend the Dalmuir/Milngavie to Cumbernauld trains to Stirling or Dunblane?

There is some sort of argument for a direct link between Cumbernauld and Stirling but I guess it is felt that the service from Croy is an adequate substitute.

 

[Peter0124]

There is some sort of argument for a direct link between Cumbernauld and Stirling but I guess it is felt that the service from Croy is an adequate substitute.

Don't forget Motherwell too though and possibly Hamilton

 

[Abpj17]

You'd be looking at a Milton Keynes-Gatwick journey time of something like 2.5 hours, when (in decent traffic) it can be driven in 1.5 hours (without the faff of getting to the station).

Actually travelling MK-Gatwick, MK-Euston-(walk)-St. Pancras then Thameslink is a very attractive route, even with wheelie cases. That takes about 1hr 45 minutes, with a slick change across London.

But a lot of people don't drive or can't afford a car. Or don't have the mobility to cope with the changes described. And that population tend to be comfortable with the extra time when traded off against access needs and costs.

 

[HST43257]

I'd extend the Welwyn Garden City (WGC) stoppers to Stevenage, allowing passengers from the Peterborough branch easily get to inner suburban stations without needing to change twice.

An issue I'd see is the likely poor journey times for Knebworth and Welwyn North, as well as pathing.

I’d love to say yes but... No.

It is unfortunately the case that the ECML double track section is full to the brim with a mix of intercity and commuter trains. The stop at Welwyn North there is the worst part, but until Welwyn is 4 tracks, there can’t be any new services on that section. An extension to Letchworth (where I believe the turnback is) for those Moorgate to Welwyn services would be great.

 

[Envy123]

I’d love to say yes but... No.

It is unfortunately the case that the ECML double track section is full to the brim with a mix of intercity and commuter trains. The stop at Welwyn North there is the worst part, but until Welwyn is 4 tracks, there can’t be any new services on that section. An extension to Letchworth (where I believe the turnback is) for those Moorgate to Welwyn services would be great.

I'd love it if there was some way to go to places like Hadley Wood with a single change, without a doubleback. We used to have those opportunities but not anymore.

 

[Ianno87]

But a lot of people don't drive or can't afford a car. Or don't have the mobility to cope with the changes described. And that population tend to be comfortable with the extra time when traded off against access needs and costs.

OK, if you're going to an airport and flying the world, chances are you can cope with changing trains and/or can get a lift off somebody who does drive.

 

[billio]

How about sending some of the Leeds - Morecambe services to Windermere instead. A65 is a very poor road at the best of times.

Services between Windermere and West Yorkshire are poor and usually via Preston or Manchester. Ideally a connection at Carnforth to/from Windermere would be useful but it is impossible.

 

[Aictos]

I'd extend the Welwyn Garden City (WGC) stoppers to Stevenage, allowing passengers from the Peterborough branch easily get to inner suburban stations without needing to change twice.

An issue I'd see is the likely poor journey times for Knebworth and Welwyn North, as well as pathing.

Not going happen as infrastructure at Stevenage doesn't support turn back of services towards Welwyn Garden City unless you do a shunt north of station which is time consuming and eats up available pathing.

Far easier to just run to Letchworth Garden City or Royston and use turn back facilities there.

 

[Minstral25]

You woudn't need to wait for East Croydon/Windmill Bridge works as the train already runs to East Croydon. The main challenge would be the flat crossing south of East Croydon at South Croydon Junction, Purley and Stoats Nest Junction where trains cross over.

As it would only be 1 extra train an hour, I reckon it would be possible, but would require a timetable recast so not worth the hassle as in the current timetable it would be a very tight squeeze to extend it. You'd likely possibly have to also remove stops on other services to fit it in, so like you said, would be very challenging to find a path but I don't think it would be impossible.

Yes and no. Firstly, you would be tying up two more 377/2s to run through to Gatwick on part of the route where they are at best duplicating other services. You need a path which isn't affected by stops on the Caterham or Redhill routes to get to Gatwick and back within the hour - I think finding a slow line path where East Croydon to Gatwick via Redhill can be done in 25 minutes is going to be a challenge given the other priorities to serve passengers on the route and frankly the train would be largely empty because it would take 45 minutes to get from Clapham Junction to Gatwick Airport rather than 25 on a fast line train.

I think the point is that the railway has concluded that running through to Gatwick simply isn't worth it if the train is stuck on the slow line side of the route (which it is).

There are no available spaces to run any more trains through from East Croydon to Purley to go south through Redhill. GTR could not fit any more services through Redhill due to constraints at this point in the May 2018 timetable update, plus if you have ever sat on a Redhill bound service through this corridor you will be used to being held at many red signals.

 

[Envy123]

Not going happen as infrastructure at Stevenage doesn't support turn back of services towards Welwyn Garden City unless you do a shunt north of station which is time consuming and eats up available pathing.

Far easier to just run to Letchworth Garden City or Royston and use turn back facilities there.

That could also work.

 

[billio]

Mentioned several times already on other threads, but extending trains that run to Clitheroe through Hellifield to somewhere on the Settle - Carlisle line would be useful. As a minimum to Settle, maybe Ribblehead and possibly Appleby. There may be scope for additional stations at Guisburn and Chatburn, but I think the main advantage is opening up this area of the North Yorkshire national park to places in Manchester and East Lancashire.
I know there are physical reasons why this would be difficult (as explained on other threads) but it is frustrating that the railway infrastructure has been made so 'tight' that extensions of this kind cannot be tested out without what seems like a collossal investment.

 

[yorksrob]

One option might be to extend some of the North Kent services through Faversham and Canterbury East which terminate at Dover Priory, round the coast to Folkestone Central. It would connect a lot of Kent directly to Folkestone, which is quite a large town.

 

[30907]

One option might be to extend some of the North Kent services through Faversham and Canterbury East which terminate at Dover Priory, round the coast to Folkestone Central. It would connect a lot of Kent directly to Folkestone, which is quite a large town.

Seems well worth pursuing.
You'd either want a turnback between Central and West (plenty of room) or to operate the service as a "rounder" in good Kent Coast fashion (I spy more creative ticketing options here....), combining with the Dover-CHX service. Or maybe run through to Ashford and link to something terminating there (when/if the new timetable gets introduced).

 

[Peregrine 4903]

You'll have issues with platform capacity at Ashford as anything coming from Dover has to use platforms 1 or 2 unless you want a crossing move that cuts across the entire station throat. Complete rounders would also be a big performance risk.

Anything beyond Folkestone just seems overly ambitious and unlikely to provide that much benefit when taking into account the performance risk.

 

[yorksrob]

Seems well worth pursuing.
You'd either want a turnback between Central and West (plenty of room) or to operate the service as a "rounder" in good Kent Coast fashion (I spy more creative ticketing options here....), combining with the Dover-CHX service. Or maybe run through to Ashford and link to something terminating there (when/if the new timetable gets introduced).

If you did need a turnback, you could always repurpose the disused up island platform at Folkestone Central.

 

[Lewlew]

I'd love it if the Tring terminators were extended to either Bletchley or Milton Keynes. An extra London service from Leighton Buzzard and MK would be very welcome, even if it's a stopper

 

[geoffk]

Mentioned several times already on other threads, but extending trains that run to Clitheroe through Hellifield to somewhere on the Settle - Carlisle line would be useful. As a minimum to Settle, maybe Ribblehead and possibly Appleby. There may be scope for additional stations at Guisburn and Chatburn, but I think the main advantage is opening up this area of the North Yorkshire national park to places in Manchester and East Lancashire.
I know there are physical reasons why this would be difficult (as explained on other threads) but it is frustrating that the railway infrastructure has been made so 'tight' that extensions of this kind cannot be tested out without what seems like a collossal investment.

"Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has named the reinstatement of the currently freight-only Clitheroe to Hellifield line to full service as one of ten routes to move forward from his department’s Ideas Fund". [Lancashire Telegraph, 27th May 2020]. It's not possible to turn back at Hellifield with the current track/signalling so train would have to run forward to Settle Junction to reverse. Not a freight-only line of course as it's used by steam and other specials and a summer Sunday Dalesrail train, but line speed is low. This plan probably would not include a new station at Gisburn or Chatburn, either of which would be useful but is there a business case for it in such a sparsely populated area?

 

[JonathanH]

I'd love it if the Tring terminators were extended to either Bletchley or Milton Keynes. An extra London service from Leighton Buzzard and MK would be very welcome, even if it's a stopper

But the whole point of them terminating at Tring is that it clears the line further north for faster services following them. You would just be duplicating mileage between Tring and Bletchley or Milton Keynes for no reason for two trains following each other so you gain nothing.

 

[cle]

Not so long back, there were only the 2tph to MKC and the 2tph that went beyond to Northampton/B'ham. With a few Watford and Bletchley peak terminators.

The service now is so much more frequent for all of the slow line stations, Tring is the faciliator for that. The Southern adds local capacity too - and is probably responsible for Wembley Central's re-found Euston (daytime) services....

 

[30907]

Mentioned several times already on other threads, but extending trains that run to Clitheroe through Hellifield to somewhere on the Settle - Carlisle line would be useful. As a minimum to Settle, maybe Ribblehead and possibly Appleby. There may be scope for additional stations at Guisburn and Chatburn, but I think the main advantage is opening up this area of the North Yorkshire national park to places in Manchester and East Lancashire.
I know there are physical reasons why this would be difficult (as explained on other threads) but it is frustrating that the railway infrastructure has been made so 'tight' that extensions of this kind cannot be tested out without what seems like a collossal investment.

"Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has named the reinstatement of the currently freight-only Clitheroe to Hellifield line to full service as one of ten routes to move forward from his department’s Ideas Fund". [Lancashire Telegraph, 27th May 2020]. It's not possible to turn back at Hellifield with the current track/signalling so train would have to run forward to Settle Junction to reverse. Not a freight-only line of course as it's used by steam and other specials and a summer Sunday Dalesrail train, but line speed is low. This plan probably would not include a new station at Gisburn or Chatburn, either of which would be useful but is there a business case for it in such a sparsely populated area?

I don't see a particular infrastructure problem with this - a timetabling inconvenience and modest extra cost to have to turn at Settle Jn/Ribblehead not Hellifield/Settle - the problem is more resourcing it.
Interesting that subsidising a service essentially for tourism (even from a seriously deprived area like East Lancs) is on the agenda, but I suspect it's simply "here is a deprived area, here is a railway we could easily reopen, let's see what we could do with it."

 

[Bigman]

Would extending the Clitheroe service to Skipton not be a better option? Quick driver change of ends at Hellifield. Hellifield to Skipton is not exactly busy.

 

[A0]

I’d love to say yes but... No.

It is unfortunately the case that the ECML double track section is full to the brim with a mix of intercity and commuter trains. The stop at Welwyn North there is the worst part, but until Welwyn is 4 tracks, there can’t be any new services on that section. An extension to Letchworth (where I believe the turnback is) for those Moorgate to Welwyn services would be great.

The Letchworth turn-back was used for the Moorgate - Hertford services which were extended to Letchworth after the Hertford - Huntingdon DMU was curtailed to Hitchin in the late 70s and there wasn't the space to terminate at Stevenage (which of course has recently been remedied).

There's no point in extending the inner suburban services that terminate at WGC to Letchworth - there simply isn't the demand to justify that. The main stations on the route between Finsbury Park and Welwyn are served by the outer-suburban services already. And anyone wanting to go from Hitchin or Letchworth to Moorgate or even the intermediate stations will have a quicker journey using the outer suburban services to Hatfield or Potters Bar and changing there.

 

[yorksrob]

Would extending the Clitheroe service to Skipton not be a better option? Quick driver change of ends at Hellifield. Hellifield to Skipton is not exactly busy.

I suppose it depends on how much you're going for the tourist market.

I should imagine there could be quite a good number of Mancunians wanting to escape to the Dales for recreation.

 

[30907]

Would extending the Clitheroe service to Skipton not be a better option? Quick driver change of ends at Hellifield. Hellifield to Skipton is not exactly busy.

You would have to resignal Hellifield to do this - not difficult but not cheap either, and barely competitive with the bus from Clitheroe. Now if Skipton Building Society were prepared to put money into it you might get somewhere with morning and evening through workings and build a timetable round that, using one extra unit.

I suppose it depends on how much you're going for the tourist market.
I should imagine there could be quite a good number of Mancunians wanting to escape to the Dales for recreation.

Are there, when the Peaks are rather nearer? Manchester-Hellifield would take 90mins, Leeds-Hellifield is under an hour, and that makes a difference to the attractiveness of a day out.
I'll look forward to what transpires.

 

[Ianno87]

You would have to resignal Hellifield to do this - not difficult but not cheap either, and barely competitive with the bus from Clitheroe. Now if Skipton Building Society were prepared to put money into it you might get somewhere with morning and evening through workings and build a timetable round that, using one extra unit.

Are there, when the Peaks are rather nearer? Manchester-Hellifield would take 90mins, Leeds-Hellifield is under an hour, and that makes a difference to the attractiveness of a day out.
I'll look forward to what transpires.

Mancunians are more naturally attracted to the Peaks and the Lakes, than the Yorkshire Dales.

 

[yorksrob]

You would have to resignal Hellifield to do this - not difficult but not cheap either, and barely competitive with the bus from Clitheroe. Now if Skipton Building Society were prepared to put money into it you might get somewhere with morning and evening through workings and build a timetable round that, using one extra unit.

Are there, when the Peaks are rather nearer? Manchester-Hellifield would take 90mins, Leeds-Hellifield is under an hour, and that makes a difference to the attractiveness of a day out.
I'll look forward to what transpires.

Mancunians are more naturally attracted to the Peaks and the Lakes, than the Yorkshire Dales.

It's about having a bit of variety and different options.

I like the Dales, but I also value access to the Lake District and peaks.

 

[Ianno87]

It's about having a bit of variety and different options.

I like the Dales, but I also value access to the Lake District and peaks.

...and how much should the taxpayer subsidise the railway for this 'variety'?

 

[yorksrob]

...and how much should the taxpayer subsidise the railway for this 'variety'?

It depends how much it values domestic tourism and leisure as part of the countries economic and personal wellbeing.

 

[py_megapixel]

Extend Paddington-Cheltenham to Worcester every 2 hours, alternating with the Gloucester-Malvern, calling at Ashchurch. Would hugely increase connectivity for residents of Tewkesbury, who have been wanting a proper service from Ashchurch pretty much since it opened.

 

[HST43257]

Extend Paddington-Cheltenham to Worcester every 2 hours, alternating with the Gloucester-Malvern, calling at Ashchurch. Would hugely increase connectivity for residents of Tewkesbury, who have been wanting a proper service from Ashchurch pretty much since it opened.

Or could you extend a Snow Hill lines service from Worcester to Gloucester?