Confirmation that Pacers should be abolished

[4SRKT]

Nothing wrong with 144s

Indeed. My friend and I are the leading lights of the West Yorkshire Pacer Veg Society.

 

[Vulcan]

Just a thought, theoretically would it be possible for pacers to be fitted with air-con? They are well within the loading gauge, so there should be space for the A/C unit on the roof.
It'd certainly make them a little bit better, especially on the Morecamble line on a hot summer day.

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, I think I'd prefer them with natural ventilation.

 

[142094]

Nothing better than a summer's day on a Pacer, nice and warm with a gentle breeze flowing through the open windows.

 

[yorksrob]

Nothing better than a summer's day on a Pacer, nice and warm with a gentle breeze flowing through the open windows.

Except a slammer with plenty of droplights of course

 

[4SRKT]

Except a slammer with plenty of droplights of course

Or an early mk II TSO with a tractor growling up front.

 

[fhs man 2]

they should get rid of them

 

[trentside]

they should get rid of them

And who is going to pay for that?

 

[tbtc]

I might try to get to Harrogate tomorrow - so it could be a 142 or 144. Lord only knows if we'll derail straight away...

Did you survive?

 

[northwichcat]

I've got an even more reckless friend who rode a 144 from Todmorden to Manchester Victoria this morning. You'll all be pleased to know that he's safe and well.

The 144s seem to ride very well in West Yorks compared to 142s in the North West. I wonder if that's because they're better trains or because the Yorkshire lines are better - if it's the latter then Northern need to switch some of the North West 142s with the non-sponsored Sprinters used in Yorkshire.

 

[Anvil1984]

I think its a bit of both to be honest,take a 144 on the York - Hull line and it will shudder but I dont see any point in swapping NW 142s for East Side 15xs. The only 15x we have based in Yorkshire are the 158s(the majority sponsored in someway) and the 155s (owned by WYPTE). Ok we have some 153s but I cant see the NW liking that swap.

 

[northwichcat]

the 158s(the majority sponsored in someway)

10x158s are the former FNW ones which Northern switched for the 10xex-ATN 150s and some of 158s cascaded since Northern took over are sponsored by Merseytravel to allow 156s to be used on Manchester Airport-Liverpool and Liverpool-Wigan, even though Manchester Airport-Liverpool saw 158s under FNW.

 

[Anvil1984]

Thats fair enough but you cannot be seriously suggesting swapping 142s for 158s just because of ride quality, the ratio of 15x to 14x services is about the same when you consider all the 156 and 150/1 operated services in the NW along with the majority of 150/2 diagrams then just the 155 (of which there are only a handful anyway), 158 and the few 150/2 diagrams. Then quite a few of the 15x diagrams on the east side work into the west side on cross pennine services (Blackpool North - York, Leeds - Man Vic).

156s are more suitable for Manchester Airport - Liverpool services as they have a lot more luggage area and IIRC a few more seats

 

[jon0844]

I must admit, I think I'd prefer them with natural ventilation.

Imagine the ventilation they could enjoy if pushed off a cliff.

 

[northwichcat]

the 158s(the majority sponsored in someway)

On checking 16 have to be used on Yorkshire services because of Sponsorship (10 are sponsored by Metro and 6 by Yorkshire Forward.) The other 30 are either unsponsored or sponsored by Merseytravel.

the ratio of 15x to 14x services is about the same when you consider all the 156 and 150/1 operated services in the NW along with the majority of 150/2 diagrams then just the 155 (of which there are only a handful anyway), 158 and the few 150/2 diagrams.

They are about the same between the old FNW and old ATN areas but the North East has a high number of Pacers while Yorkshire has a low number of Pacers.

Blackpool North - York

That was a TPE route before the TPE franchise got seperated and Northern were given the middle 158 cars by DfT specifically for that route. Although they are now more often used on services like Sheffield-Leeds, Selby/Leeds-Wakefield via Huddersfield, Leeds-Huddersfield via Dewsbury so if they wanted to be awkward DfT could demand them back.

Longer services in the North West like Chester-Manchester via Altrincham, Manchester Airport-Southport, Carlisle coast etc. see Pacers for most services while short journeys in Yorkshire like the ones mentioned above see 158s quite frequently.

156s are more suitable for Manchester Airport - Liverpool services as they have a lot more luggage area and IIRC a few more seats

The ATN 156s actually have less luggage space than the FNW 158s. The units from the RRNW Express services generally got more luggage space than those from the RRNE Express services.

 

[Eng274]

One train failure is not grounds to withdraw an entire class of train. All trains breakdown from time to time, and the Pacers aren't the worst culprits for reliability issues by any means. In the current economic conditions, it doesn't look like there's going to be any new replacement rolling stock to allow the Pacers to be withdrawn any time soon. Whilst they are not perfect, they do the job of getting people from A to B quite reliably most of the time, and are a cheap, lightweight train for local services.

Is it true that Arriva Trains Wales are stuck with their Pacers til AT LEAST the end of the current franchise? (2018, by then the 15yr stop-gaps will be 33 years old)

I think Pacers have character, I'll miss them when they eventually get withdrawn.

 

[Aictos]

Nah, send them to preserved railways as they would be perfect!

 

[142094]

Did you survive?

I did in fact, although been busy the last two days so it may have seemed I had not considering the length of time it took to reply!

 

[ainsworth74]

Is it true that Arriva Trains Wales are stuck with their Pacers til AT LEAST the end of the current franchise? (2018, by then the 15yr stop-gaps will be 33 years old)

Pacers aren't going anywhere any time soon with any franchise (apart from being cascaded around a bit from time to time).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nah, send them to preserved railways as they would be perfect!

That's what I've been thinking actually when we do lose them off the main line in the far far future they might be quite useful for preserved railways to open community services like on the Weardale Railway.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is it true that Arriva Trains Wales are stuck with their Pacers til AT LEAST the end of the current franchise? (2018, by then the 15yr stop-gaps will be 33 years old)

I think Pacers have character, I'll miss them when they eventually get withdrawn.

Barring any possibility of cascades of Sprinters in the next few years that sees the ATW Pacers go to Northern or something (beyond next years' LM cascade), then I would say that it's a certainty. Isn't there some sort of condition built into the ATW franchise that they cannot order any new trains during the course of it? If so I'd reckon there will be a condition in the following Wales franchise TO renew the train fleet.

I'm sure there'll be a few Pacers wind up chugging around preserved lines.

 

[Anvil1984]

They are about the same between the old FNW and old ATN areas but the North East has a high number of Pacers while Yorkshire has a low number of Pacers.

Neville Hill has a lower allocation of pacers as the 142s are either Heaton based or Newton Heath, I still say the proportion of work in the areas are the same

That was a TPE route before the TPE franchise got seperated and Northern were given the middle 158 cars by DfT specifically for that route. Although they are now more often used on services like Sheffield-Leeds, Selby/Leeds-Wakefield via Huddersfield, Leeds-Huddersfield via Dewsbury so if they wanted to be awkward DfT could demand them back.

They work on those routes the same as they do cross border services as the diagrams you refer to are Man Vic - Selby - Wakefield Grand Tour - Leeds - Man Vic. The 3 car variants rarely go on to the Leeds - Huddersfeilds via Dewsbury as they interwork with the Leeds to Man Vic via Dewsbury services. We also got the centrecars in the knoledge we were going to be losing units to Scotrail, maybe Dft can send those down south.

I cannot accept that a class 156 has less luggage space or seating than the
158ss even the RRNW 158s, especially the ex ATN 156s which you got in exchange for the 158s whih has got a huge luggage and bike area at one end of the train.

We'll gladly take some 156s back in exchange for 158s but I cannot see how you can seriously propose swapping 142s for 158s, 23m coach stock is needed just as much here

 

[ainsworth74]

Isn't there some sort of condition built into the ATW franchise that they cannot order any new trains during the course of it?

Yep I'm fairly sure there is. ATW have the same problem as Northern both were let as 'No Growth' franchises hence there is no provision for funding to procure new or additional rolling stock.

 

[northwichcat]

I cannot accept that a class 156 has less luggage space or seating than the 158s even the RRNW 158s, especially the ex ATN 156s which you got in exchange for the 158s whih has got a huge luggage and bike area at one end of the train.

We'll gladly take some 156s back in exchange for 158s but I cannot see how you can seriously propose swapping 142s for 158s, 23m coach stock is needed just as much here

I've managed to fit a large suitcase between the backs of seats on an old TPE 158. The ATN 156s don't have room for a shoulder bag between the seat backs.

The large luggage area you refer to on the 156s was designed as a parcel area meaning one large suitcase would take up the entire top shelf here: http://northernrail.fotopic.net/p43915116.html unless it was put in an unsafe position.

156s also have the disadvantage of you have to be sat half the length of a carriage away from your suitcase to be able to keep it in view.

 

[Vulcan]

Theres an easy solution for the luggage problem that occurs on all trains:

BAN WHEELIE CASES FROM ALL FORMS OF PUBLIC TRANSPORT

I hate the damn things, they never fit in any of the luggage spaces on trains, and their users meander all over the place, and stop at the top and bottom of every staircase to fold/unfold the stupid handle. This happens most when your trying to get past to make your connection.

Sorry, nothing to do with pacers, but since your talking about the luggae space problem I thought I'd bring it up.

 

[northwichcat]

We'll gladly take some 156s back in exchange for 158s but I cannot see how you can seriously propose swapping 142s for 158s, 23m coach stock is needed just as much here

We got 150s in exchange for our 158s.

If not seriously suggesting swapping units but remember it was your area that decided to reduce capacity and go for 2+2 seating on Pacers*, while ours has always maintained 3+2 on 142s and 150s to have more capacity, so why should we have to suffer because of poor decisions made by WYPTE and the previous holders of the North East franchise?

*Some people will say that 2+2 increases standing capacity but overall capacity on an ATN 142 and a 144 driving car is lower than on a FNW or Merseytravel 142.

 

[Lampshade]

We got 150s in exchange for our 158s.

If not seriously suggesting swapping units but remember it was your area that decided to reduce capacity and go for 2+2 seating on Pacers*, while ours has always maintained 3+2 on 142s and 150s to have more capacity, so why should we have to suffer because of poor decisions made by WYPTE and the previous holders of the North East franchise?

*Some people will say that 2+2 increases standing capacity but overall capacity on an ATN 142 and a 144 driving car is lower than on a FNW or Merseytravel 142.

While I also frown upon how Northern pillaged anything decent from NH and moved it over the Pennines, let's not forget that this is mainly down to PTEs and outside funding which, despite infuriating the many people left with a raw deal, makes good business sense.

The Pacers allocated to Heaton and the WYPTE 144s have really good seating, if we were discussing seating alone then they'd win hands down. Who the hell sits in the centre seat on the 3 side? You can't physically get in that seat sometimes as people swivel towards the middle to get better legroom.

 

[yorksrob]

While I also frown upon how Northern pillaged anything decent from NH and moved it over the Pennines, let's not forget that this is mainly down to PTEs and outside funding which, despite infuriating the many people left with a raw deal, makes good business sense.

The Pacers allocated to Heaton and the WYPTE 144s have really good seating, if we were discussing seating alone then they'd win hands down. Who the hell sits in the centre seat on the 3 side? You can't physically get in that seat sometimes as people swivel towards the middle to get better legroom.

Too true,

There seem to be a lot more bus and Mersey seats over in Lancashire. Bearing in mind the Pacers will be with us for many years to come, they need to be stripped as a matter of urgency IMO.

 

[northwichcat]

While I also frown upon how Northern pillaged anything decent from NH and moved it over the Pennines, let's not forget that this is mainly down to PTEs and outside funding which, despite infuriating the many people left with a raw deal, makes good business sense.

No it's down to Northern simply wanting all the 158s based on the East side and all the 150s based on the West side. As already pointed out a number of the 158s are sponsored by Merseytravel despite the closest they get to Liverpool being Manchester Victoria.

The Pacers allocated to Heaton and the WYPTE 144s have really good seating, if we were discussing seating alone then they'd win hands down. Who the hell sits in the centre seat on the 3 side? You can't physically get in that seat sometimes as people swivel towards the middle to get better legroom.

You seem to contradict yourself there a bit. The 144s and the ATN 142s have less leg room than the original bus seating. On Pacers with the original bus seating my knees don't touch the back of the seat in front. On the Merseytravel 142s, ATN 142s, 144s, 150s (both types of seating) and the ATN 156s my knees do touch the back of the seat in front.

You ask "Who the hell sits in the centre seat?" On peak time and Saturday services from Manchester there's usually 24 people sitting in the middle seats - yes they are squashed in but they rather get to where they are going in uncomfortable conditions than remain at the station for hours before a half empty service shows up. Some 142 services with 3+2 seating have around 180 people squeezed on, with the ATN 142s once you get to around 140 the train's leaving people behind.

I'm certainly not in favour of 15.5m carriages with 3+2 seating over 23m carriages with 2+2 seating but it should be noted that a lot of the trains that are overcrowded in the mornings and at weekends contain a number of schoolkids, who can usually comfortably sit in 3+2 style seating, with maybe the exception of the Merseytravel 142s.

 

[MCR247]

Just curious, can people stand in the middle of pacers with 3+2 seating?

 

[4SRKT]

Just curious, can people stand in the middle of pacers with 3+2 seating?

Yes. They're the same width as any other normal train.