Confirmation that Pacers should be abolished

[TrainBrain185]

Correct, just look what the Weardale Railway uses (141s if anyone doesn't know), and I've been told by people that they are well used now since the line reopened to Bishop Auckland.

The Weardale Railway only has one Class 141 unit. The other unit was stripped of all usable parts and the remains sold for scrap.
Was on this unit during the summer and indeed, it runs well but its still wild at heart and would relish a blast on a straight main line again!
Regarding Pacers, well, as well documented by the chaps on here, its loved or loathed. It would be a sad railway indeed without these characters of trains being on the metals, but wait and see how many preserved railways snap them up when their time comes to be put out to graze.
I was one who hated them with a vengeance when the first arrived on the scene with terrible gremlins mainly for passengers, but over the years, yes, with some tender loving care and the odd two dozen mods or so, they have proved to become a valuable and fairly reliable workhorse that provide an entertaining ride on those secondary non profitable lines.
From hating them, I will miss them when their time comes and what train will the "knockers" knock next I wonder? I love the unique experience riding them!

 

[Drsatan]

I think in 20 years time when all Pacers have been withdrawn from main line service, that enthusiasts and passengers will look back on them more fondly.

Many enthusiasts look upon the 3rd rail slammers with fondness, conveniently forgetting that they, just like the Pacers, could be notoriously rough riding.

Going back even further, enthusiasts hated diesel locomotives for deposing their beloved steam locomotives, but today I'd say that there are more diesel fans than steam fans.

It's a recurring cycle: enthusiasts will hate an unpopular train while it's in service but prior to withdrawal from NR metals, and while in preservation, it will be celebrated.

 

[harz99]

... if any were needed.

Yesterday, bank holiday Monday, our two-car Pacer "expired" on the Exmouth branch just short of the mainline. Eventually, a four-car Pacer was sent to drag it to St Davids. Whatever the fault was on the first Pacer was then transferred to the new one, meaning we screeched and jolted our way off the branch eventually into Exeter Central over 1 hr late. A coach then took us to St Davids as it was unsafe to allow passengers on the six-car Pacer down the steep slope into St Davids.

To cap off the journey even further (destination Norwich), the HST was 30 mins down. There were then no trains from London Liverpool Street, so it was Central Line to Newbury Park (that's quite a long way out in Zone 4), a coach to Ingatestone, another wait, and finally another 1 hr 40 on NXEA to Norwich. I departed Exmouth at 2 pm and arrived home in a taxi well after midnight.

Next time I do this journey, shall I take the train or drive? I think I know which!

Okay so your train broke down - it happens from time to time to almost all types of traction from brand new to old.

Annoying, unfortunate for you and others - yes, but not an argument for withdrawing the type (although many other arguments already exist).

The subsequent probelms of your journey are those that typically occur somewhere on the rail network every Bank Holiday and were known about in advance.

For someone with your interest (you joined this forum for a reason), you surely knew, or should have known, about the likely delays of travelling by rail last weekend.

So, go by car by all means, but don't blame a whole day's events on one failure.

 

[sprinterguy]

The 14x should not be scrapped post main line withdrawl whilst i'm at it. I'm sure one or two user groups or heritage lines could use them to introduce regular services / bring old lines back to live, going back to there original intended use of keeping lines open

I reckon there'll be quite a few Pacers reach preservation, given that they are simple trains to maintain. I've heard it reported that Pacers are quite well suited to the slower, 25mph maximum speed of preserved lines and that in such situations a lot of their more apparent faults aren't so obvious, when they aren't being thrashed mercilessly at 60mph! I have yet to have a go on the Weardale Railway 141, but hope to sometime in the near future.

One train failure is not grounds to withdraw an entire class of train. All trains breakdown from time to time, and the Pacers aren't the worst culprits for reliability issues by any means. In the current economic conditions, it doesn't look like there's going to be any new replacement rolling stock to allow the Pacers to be withdrawn any time soon. Whilst they are not perfect, they do the job of getting people from A to B quite reliably most of the time, and are a cheap, lightweight train for local services. It was partly the withdrawal of the 20 class 141s and their subsequent sale to Iran/preservation that has landed us in this stock shortage mess, especially on the Northern network, when no new stock was forthcoming: The Pacers are going to have to keep going for a while yet.

And I reckon they will be missed when they are withdrawn from service: I started to feel nostalgic about them when I moved awy from the north east (And hence didn't have to deal with them on a daily basis!).
And look on the bright side: The Serpell report, released when the Pacers were still in development, recommended the production of "a cheaper, less sophisticated version of the 141 Railbus"hock: Given how dire the 141s were, can you imagine what a "cheaper, less sophisticated" version would have been like? The mind boggles!

 

[EltonRoad]

I knew I'd have to take a bus from Newbury Park etc.

I took the train on this occasion because I'd driven some 450 miles the day before.

There is no doubt that I got back 2 hours later than I would have done as a consequence of the Pacer breaking down.

Of course I'm being slightly facetitious in suggesting all Pacers should be withdrawn. But they're not great trains, you have to admit ...

 

[4SRKT]

Well I for one am quite happy with pacers on my journey to work (when I don't drive). Because I take the Skipton > London HST from Shipley into Leeds, then connect with a local service to Huddersfield formed by a 3-car pacer, I get older traction on both legs

Return journey is a 333 from Leeds, unless I leave early enough to pick up a 2-car pacer Leeds > Shipley on the 16:39 to Morecambe (not often).

Sometimes a pacer is replaced by a 2-car 158 which is a right crush in the peaks. I'm travelling against the peak on the pacer leg so it doesn't bother me, but it's pretty rough for people commuting into Leeds.

 

[flymo]

I remember when Pacers were first introduced, the 143's in Tyne & Wear, and with the SCG* gearbox you had the front half in first gear and the second half in second gear. It took a while until both units were in the same gear. There was a 'throttle dip' on each half so as that bit was changing gear it would throttle back to idle for the 3 or 4 seconds it took to select the next gear up.

One day I was on a 142 via Hebden Bridge [can't remember from where or to where] and it had a huge difficulty in getting both halves in the same gear at the same time.

Cracking units and made their mark. Love them

* SCG Self Changing Gears of Coventry.

 

[northwichcat]

I reckon there'll be quite a few Pacers reach preservation, given that they are simple trains to maintain. I've heard it reported that Pacers are quite well suited to the slower, 25mph maximum speed of preserved lines and that in such situations a lot of their more apparent faults aren't so obvious, when they aren't being thrashed mercilessly at 60mph!

Not neccessairly they are that their worst where there are sharp bends, lines crossing each other and farmers level crossings.

On the Chester to Manchester via Altrincham line where Pacers are commonly used the worst places are:
1. Skelton - Deansgate Junction where it's a 15mph speed limit on a sharp bend and I'm sure most drivers do not more than 10mph when using a Pacer and the squealing is terrible. If the windows are opening it's louder than vouvouzelas.
2. Lostock Gralam to mid way between Plumley and Knutsford. There's quite a few level crossings for farmers and the Pacers bounce on each one.
3. On departure from Manchester Piccadilly, for the first half a mile or so it squeals on and off.

On the other hand Skelton Junction-Edgley Junction near Stockport is 50-75mph and apart from the Pacer struggling to accelerate, especially when it's crowded, it certainly isn't anywhere near the worse area of the line for ride quality.

 

[12CSVT]

Pacers should be confined to self contained branch line workings. The Winsford crash in 1998 highlighted one of their biggest weaknesses. Thankfully it was running as ECS at the time.

 

[142094]

Pacers should be confined to self contained branch line workings. The Winsford crash in 1998 highlighted one of their biggest weaknesses. Thankfully it was running as ECS at the time.

What weakness is this? There was a debate on another thread about the crashworthiness of a Pacer, they might not have the same safety designs as modern units but I'd still say they are safe.

 

[YorkshireBear]

crashworthyness isn't up to much but i like them, they are the major stock on locals in sheffield and i don't mind them.

I agree with many who said they could bring some rural/preservation lines back to life by providing a service. Keighley and worth valley to name 1.

We'll miss them but they can be useless in peaks sometimes and looking into other carriage the difference in movement due to bouncing around can make me feel quite sick.

 

[northwichcat]

Pacers should be confined to self contained branch line workings. The Winsford crash in 1998 highlighted one of their biggest weaknesses. Thankfully it was running as ECS at the time.

Most real branch lines were closed down except for some routes in the West Country and Wales. A lot of the more rural routes in the Northern area use a mainline for part of the journey, then even some of the ones that don't are used on the same lines as heavy freight.

 

[Templecombe]

i wouldn't wanna be on a pacer in a crash i'd rather crash a gwizz into on coming traffic on the m5

 

[4SRKT]

i wouldn't wanna be on a pacer in a crash i'd rather crash a gwizz into on coming traffic on the m5

I don't suppose anyone wants to be in a crash, no matter what he's on.

 

[Templecombe]

I don't suppose anyone wants to be in a crash, no matter what he's on.

i mean i'd feel more safer then on a pacer I avoid them at all costs they're not safe to be on the rail network like the trips on the sea wall mixing it with hsts and voyagers

 

[4SRKT]

i mean i'd feel more safer then on a pacer I avoid them at all costs they're not safe to be on the rail network like the trips on the sea wall mixing it with hsts and voyagers

Well, they aren't mixing with them because the signals keep them apart. How many accidents have pacers actually been involved in? And how many deaths/injuries? How many miles have they travelled since they were new?

Statistically they're pretty safe, like any train. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. You're in a lot more danger walking to the station to catch one.

 

[Templecombe]

taken from wikipedia There have been a number of accidents involving Class 142 Pacer trains since their introduction, the most serious of which happened at Winsford in 1999. The driver of a First North Western unit running empty from Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street overran a red signal on the slow line and stopped in the path of the 06:15 London Euston to Glasgow Central Virgin Trains express, hauled by a Class 87 electric locomotive.[11] The impact, which wrote the unit off, severed the Pacer's body from its frames, causing severe internal damage, raising the question of whether Pacers are crashworthy.[12]

On 11 June 2009, a 142 (Class 142042) operated by Northern Rail derailed while on route from Blackpool to Liverpool. All 40 passengers on board escaped serious injury, but one person was taken to hospital with minor injuries. An investigation is currently being carried out, but it has been suspected that a major problem with the engine occurred as passengers saw large parts of it on the track. Problems with engines on 142s have been experienced before.[13]

The ensuing report recommended that they be withdrawn and replaced in the near future with heavier more sturdy Sprinters.[citation needed] However, as there are no spare Sprinters available, only 142008 & 142059 have been withdrawn both through accident damage. 142059 was withdrawn in 1990 after colliding with the buffer stops at Liverpool Lime Street. The train had runaway down the hill from Edge Hill whilst returning with brake problems. The train was running without passengers at the time and the driver and guard both survived the accident without serious lasting injury. The platforms were evacuated in time before the train struck the buffers.

John Pugh, the Liberal Democrat MP for Southport, has described the 142 trains as "unsafe". However the UK Government's Transport Secretary Geoff Hoon denied this claim saying, "I would not accept that any of that rolling stock is unsafe", and that they constantly upgrade them. MP John Pugh added that these trains were exacerbating the overcrowding situation due to the lack of seating and space on board them. He is continuing to work to try to get the trains replaced, especially as passenger numbers are expected to increase in the next few years.[14][15]
move spriners to these services and use loco hauled or stored units to replace the sprinters most logical thing to do but what do i know
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Well, they aren't mixing with them because the signals keep them apart. How many accidents have pacers actually been involved in? And how many deaths/injuries? How many miles have they travelled since they were new?

Statistically they're pretty safe, like any train. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. You're in a lot more danger walking to the station to catch one.

I wouldn't walk to catch one i'd make sure i got the next non pacer diagram

 

[sprinterguy]

And still, despite the various incidents and accidents that Pacers' have been in, they are far safer to travel on than travelling by car! Most train classes have been in major crashes throughout there history. For example, the HSTs have been involved in a number of serious crashes, and many more people have died as a result of HSTs accidents than in Pacer accidents, but we are not debating the saftey of travelling on HSTs here are we?

Admittedly the structural integrity of a Pacer in a head on collision is lower than for many other types of trains, but the chances of a major accident are so low that it's a negligible risk.

 

[142094]

I still don't think that is evidence that Pacers are unsafe. Pictures of the Winsford crash show that most of the damage was received to the cab, but the seating area for passengers was quite intact. Plus I'd like to see the damage an 87 would do to some other units going around these days.

People harp on about how they are not safe, yet why would they still be on the railway if they weren't? Safety measures are changing all the time for the good, but that doesn't necessarily mean everything before now is unsafe, it just means our perception of satefy is changing as well.

Plus how many thousands of people are killed on the roads each year, and the thousands who are badly hurt compared to the railways? It seems quite acceptible in society to not be concerned with road deaths yet if someone dies on the railway all hell breaks loose in the Press.

 

[Greenback]

There is bound to be damage to any type of unit in a collision. It depends on how we define safety. Is safety the chance of being in a collision or other accident in the first place. the chance of serious injury during the accident, or a combination of the two?

The railway is one of the safest forms of transport that there is. The fact that a Pacer may not be as strong as another type of unit may mean that there is a slightly higher chance of receiving some sort of injury if an accident does occur should not overshadow the fact that an accident of that nature is highly unlikely. The sad fact is that a head on collision at speed is probably going to cause fatalities no matter what type of train is involved.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The impact, which wrote the unit off, severed the Pacer's body from its frames

It was pointed out in much of the railway press at the time that the Pacer bodies are held to the frames with four large boltswhich were designed to shear off in an accident in order to reduce the degree of any crushing to the bodyshell from the end loading should anything ride up over the underframe - which is exactly what happened at Winsford.

If the bodyshells had remained attached to the underframe in that impact, the damage would have been far worse - look at the pictures and see how far along the underframe the bodyshell moved and then look at where the front of the 87 came to rest.

 

[Vulcan]

What makes you think they're unsafe? I wouldn't have thought they're any more dangerous then, say, a 150 or 155.

Also, what difference to their safety do the other trains using the same route have? I bet you'd go in a car on a road with Artics using it
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wow, how long did I take to write that / how fast is everyone else on here?? I'm out of practice on this forum....

anyway, my previous post was aimed towards Templecombe in case anyone was wondering what the hell I'm on about.

 

[142094]

I wouldn't walk to catch one i'd make sure i got the next non pacer diagram

I'd laugh if you wanted to go to Saltburn or somewhere along that line, you'd be waiting a very long time.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd laugh if you wanted to go to Saltburn or somewhere along that line, you'd be waiting a very long time.

Too true

I've caught trains on that line literally dozens of times and I can count the number of times its been a 156 on one hand.

 

[142094]

It is always a surprise when a 156 turns up. I remember a few years back a Central green livery 158 turned up on a Newcastle - Morpeth run. I was lucky that day!

 

[Drsatan]

If you go to Barnstaple station and expect a 150 or 153 to take you to Exmouth, you're in for a long wait. The majority of local services in Devon are worked by 142s.

I know some will wail about Pacers being 'unsafe' and should be withdrawn immediately, but the same people forget that good maintenance of the permanent way and signalling is what keeps passengers safe. For instance, the Clapham Junction crash of 1987 (which lead to Mk1s being withdrawn, although Mk1 EMUs were built right up to 1972) was caused by faulty signals. Many people drive cars that scored badly in EuroNCAP crash tests (like the Rover Metro/100), but no-one says that all cars with poor crash test results should be banned from the road!

 

[ainsworth74]

I remember a few years back a Central green livery 158 turned up on a Newcastle - Morpeth run.

Ahh the luxury of a train with AC no less!

(Well assuming that the AC actually works )

 

[sprinterguy]

It is always a surprise when a 156 turns up. I remember a few years back a Central green livery 158 turned up on a Newcastle - Morpeth run. I was lucky that day!

I've been surprised in the past when Transpennine 158s would very occasionally turn up on Tyne Valley services a few years back. A lot of Northerns' north east stock rosters seem to champion a line of thought something like "give 'em a 142 as much as possible, if that fails, then just chuck whatever we have sitting at Heaton at them".

 

[142094]

Ahh the luxury of a train with AC no less!

(Well assuming that the AC actually works )

All for about 20 minutes! 142 on the way back (still prefer 142s - the aircon they have is the gaps in the doors )

I've been surprised in the past when Transpennine 158s would very occasionally turn up on Tyne Valley services a few years back. A lot of Northerns' north east stock rosters seem to champion a line of thought something like "give 'em a 142 as much as possible, if that fails, then just chuck whatever we have sitting at Heaton at them".

There was a time when there were a few 158s floating around the NE for some reason, one was the Central green livery and the other an Alphalines silver and purple one (similar to East Coast on the 225 set). Soon disappered though.

 

[sprinterguy]

There was a time when there were a few 158s floating around the NE for some reason, one was the Central green livery and the other an Alphalines silver and purple one (similar to East Coast on the 225 set). Soon disappered though.

There was indeed, 158783 was the Central Trains one, for some reason I saw it quite regularly heading north on the through road at Durham. Can't remember which one the Wessex silver one was, I only remember I didn't see that one as much. And yeah pretty soon after they headed down Sheffield way with a repaint into Northern colours: Oh well, Newcastle had a couple of months of luxury local travel :roll: