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Proposals to reopen Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton

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Another thing, I am assuming that the capacity is there at Cowley Bridge Junction for an hourly Okehampton service as well as the Barnstaple train? Would be a fairly busy junction what with it being a single track junction. Incorporating the Okehampton service with the mainline ones could be interesting.
 
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Irascible

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Yep. Of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Another thing, I am assuming that the capacity is there at Cowley Bridge Junction for an hourly Okehampton service as well as the Barnstaple train? Would be a fairly busy junction what with it being a single track junction. Incorporating the Okehampton service with the mainline ones could be interesting.

Well, it wasn't always - if there was a need then there's room to put the other bridge back, assuming any flood defence work is done with the recognition it *might* be needed one day.
 

Irascible

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How is this going to be achieved? I don’t see how one is going to run on electric power only within the next 10 years at least.

It can carry storage for electricity around with it - which method depends on where it's going.

£1200 per head in Devon assumes we want to pay for the wires up through half of Berkshire, Wiltshire & Somerset too, there are a few people living there with a little cash to contribute ( although I note I missed out Cogload-Exeter )

At some point I'll attempt to see how much of Devon is in the catchment area of the GWR line, I suspect "most" tbh.
 

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MarkyT

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Well, it wasn't always - if there was a need then there's room to put the other bridge back, assuming any flood defence work is done with the recognition it *might* be needed one day.
There are two single-track bridges in short succession. They were singled some years before the rest of the line to Crediton was under resignalling in the 1980s, and would be expensive to rebuild. The geometry also looks difficult at the junction too if mainline through speed is to be maintained and reconstruction of road overbridge avoided, although the latter might be necessary eventually amyway for electrification so could represent an opportunity. A longer double track section extending from Crediton towards Exeter would probably be more useful however. About a two-mile extension would be possible without having to reinstate the second platform at Newton St Cyres and together with converting the two single lines west of Crediton to Coleford Junction into double could potentially create a dynamic loop of around seven miles including both Crediton and Yeoford stations.
 

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There are two single-track bridges in short succession. They were singled some years before the rest of the line to Crediton was under resignalling in the 1980s, and would be expensive to rebuild. The geometry also looks difficult at the junction too if mainline through speed is to be maintained and reconstruction of road overbridge avoided, although the latter might be necessary eventually amyway for electrification so could represent an opportunity. A longer double track section extending from Crediton towards Exeter would probably be more useful however. About a two-mile extension would be possible without having to reinstate the second platform at Newton St Cyres and together with converting the two single lines west of Crediton to Coleford Junction into double could potentially create a dynamic loop of around seven miles including both Crediton and Yeoford stations.
You leave my bridge alone @MarkyT. :)
Actually I’m sure that I read somewhere that the bridge has some kind of architectural value. Is it some kind of Brunelian elliptical design maybe? Or have I got that wildly wrong?
 
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It can carry storage for electricity around with it - which method depends on where it's going.

£1200 per head in Devon assumes we want to pay for the wires up through half of Berkshire, Wiltshire & Somerset too, there are a few people living there with a little cash to contribute ( although I note I missed out Cogload-Exeter )

At some point I'll attempt to see how much of Devon is in the catchment area of the GWR line, I suspect "most" tbh.
Not going to happen. Where exactly do you plan on sticking these batteries?
 

MarkyT

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Not going to happen. Where exactly do you plan on sticking these batteries?
Hitachi & GWR are shortly due to commence trials of a class 802 unit with I think at least one of the underfloor diesel generator modules replaced by a battery pack. With more OHLE mileage en route, but not everywhere, it might be possible to eliminate all or at least most of the diesels on board.
 

MarkyT

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You leave my bridge alone @MarkyT. :)
Actually I’m sure that I read somewhere that the bridge has some kind of architectural value. Is it some kind of Brunelian elliptical design maybe? Or have I got that wildly wrong?
I wouldn't have thought it would be wise to LOWER the trackbed in that area to obtain electrification clearances! I admit to not knowing much about the structure. Do you know if it's the original, as erected by the Bristol & Exeter?
 
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Hitachi & GWR are shortly due to commence trials of a class 802 unit with I think at least one of the underfloor diesel generator modules replaced by a battery pack. With more OHLE mileage en route, but not everywhere, it might be possible to eliminate all or at least most of the diesels on board.
How? What’s the plan when you get to the South Devon Banks? Batteries won’t save you there, and the engines need to be able to charge the batteries as well as power the train.

Seems like a bit of an unnecessary gimmick and makes a train that’s already to expensive even more expensive.
 

Cowley

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I wouldn't have thought it would be wise to LOWER the trackbed in that area to obtain electrification clearances! I admit to not knowing much about the structure. Do you know if it's the original, as erected by the Bristol & Exeter?
I’ve got a feeling that it is. I’m going to have to do a bit of research if I’m going to stake my reputation (and username) on it though.
I’ll get back to you on it. Give me a couple of days. ;)
 

MarkyT

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How? What’s the plan when you get to the South Devon Banks? Batteries won’t save you there, and the engines need to be able to charge the batteries as well as power the train.

Seems like a bit of an unnecessary gimmick and makes a train that’s already to expensive even more expensive.
In the fully developed partial electrification scenario, the majority of a trunk main line would be electrified, especially steep bits like the Devon banks. Batteries could allow short difficult bits like the sea wall section to be omitted however, and lower trafficked extremities and branches with through services from the main line. Another relevant project to watch is the South Wales Metro, where similar techniques are being implemented.
 

Irascible

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How? What’s the plan when you get to the South Devon Banks? Batteries won’t save you there, and the engines need to be able to charge the batteries as well as power the train.

Seems like a bit of an unnecessary gimmick and makes a train that’s already to expensive even more expensive.

You're assuming we're ( or at least BR who brought up the point ) talking about that part of the line anyway. There's plenty more rail in Devon, not least one fairly short branch.

Engines don't need to charge batteries uphill unless you've screwed up your hybrid schema, that's what going down the other side is for.
 

Irascible

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You leave my bridge alone @MarkyT. :)
Actually I’m sure that I read somewhere that the bridge has some kind of architectural value. Is it some kind of Brunelian elliptical design maybe? Or have I got that wildly wrong?

Well that makes life super-awkward! horrible flood spot, a cramped junction ( and you've got the entrance to Riverside yard just the other side of the bridge too ) and now the bridge is looking like it's protected ( the James Green bridge is g2 listed already ).

Redoubling the bridges seems a last resort ( never know, maybe the bridges will get washed away one winter! ) - just speeding up the junction itself might help a little, iirc it's 40 off the junction & the crossover is 25.
 

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If I have interpreted the Sectional Appendix correctly both the crossover and the first 4 chains of the Barnstaple line are 20 mph. After that it goes up to 40 mph for a quarter of a mile and then 60 mph.
 

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Well that makes life super-awkward! horrible flood spot, a cramped junction ( and you've got the entrance to Riverside yard just the other side of the bridge too ) and now the bridge is looking like it's protected ( the James Green bridge is g2 listed already ).

Redoubling the bridges seems a last resort ( never know, maybe the bridges will get washed away one winter! ) - just speeding up the junction itself might help a little, iirc it's 40 off the junction & the crossover is 25.

Perhaps it would be a good use for the bridge lifting machine used in this trial from a few years ago?

 

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It could be an idea to use one of sidings of New Yard and the long shunt spur as a secondary track to keep the local trains off the main line for as long as possible before crossing over to use Cowley Bridge Junction.
 

Irascible

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If I have interpreted the Sectional Appendix correctly both the crossover and the first 4 chains of the Barnstaple line are 20 mph. After that it goes up to 40 mph for a quarter of a mile and then 60 mph.

Thanks for that - having finally dug up the right bits, I agree. I notice the lines between Cowley & St D are not bidirectional - not sure how much use making the up line reversable would be ( especially when Barnstaple trains have to cross to go up the hill anyway ), maybe if the south end junction is modified to let trains from Central go to + from all platforms again. ( Why on earth did SR trains use p4+5? ).


Perhaps it would be a good use for the bridge lifting machine used in this trial from a few years ago?


I was wondering if you could lift the bridge ( why didn't they do that for that awkward bridge on the GWML? too listed? ) you'd also have to lift the roundabout & the road to Stoke Canon a bit although that won't bother cars much. That's a fairly challenging location to try it!

It could be an idea to use one of sidings of New Yard and the long shunt spur as a secondary track to keep the local trains off the main line for as long as possible before crossing over to use Cowley Bridge Junction.

Hmm. If they're leaving for Crediton & would get in the way of a main line train you can just hold it, if it's going to trip up a down train then maybe the bidirectional up would help ( although then it's stuck in the wrong side of St Davids or blocking the up line until it can get it's route ) or hold it on the branch. Using the yard ( effectively ) might help if there's congestion on the branch & you desperately need a platform but heads might be rolling at that point :) going branch-cowley-riverside is still going to lock out the up line for a bit.
 

Bald Rick

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How is this going to be achieved? I don’t see how one is going to run on electric power only within the next 10 years at least.



How? What’s the plan when you get to the South Devon Banks? Batteries won’t save you there, and the engines need to be able to charge the batteries as well as power the train.

Seems like a bit of an unnecessary gimmick and makes a train that’s already to expensive even more expensive.

It never fails to amaze me why people think battery powered vehicles will struggle up hills. The electric motors don’t know - or care - where the electrons come from. The train will sail up the banks easily, just as Teslas sail up Stelvio.

As Roger Ford explains in this months Modern Railways, one Class 800 power pack weighs 8 tonnes of MTU engine, alternator, cooling system, fuel tank and exhaust after treatment. A battery pack weighing that much will have a capacity of around 1 MWh. That provides enough juice to power the whole train at full power for about half an hour. That would get you up Drumochter, let alone Dainton. More realistically, it will get trains into and out of stations with the engines off, and boost the power when accelerating at higher speeds (or up the banks) to help reduce journey times.

I know some forum members like to make a little fun of me talking abut battery trains, but this is happening, and will be running on the main line in two years or so.

Why is this relevant here? Because it could dramatically alter the cost / benefit of decarbonising the line from Bristol / Newbury to Penzance, which I estimate would provide much better environmental benefit than reopening a line across Dartmoor.
 
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21C101

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It never fails to amaze me why people think battery powered vehicles will struggle up hills. The electric motors don’t know - or care - where the electrons come from. The train will sail up the banks easily, just as Teslas sail up Stelvio.

As Roger Ford explains in this months Modern Railways, one Class 800 power pack weighs 8 tonnes of MTU engine, alternator, cooling system, fuel tank and exhaust after treatment. A battery pack weighing that much will have a capacity of around 1 MWh. That provides enough juice to power the whole train at full power for about half an hour. That would get you up Drumochter, let alone Dainton. More realistically, it will get trains into and out of stations with the engines off, and boost the power when accelerating at higher speeds (or up the banks) to help reduce journey times.

I know some forum members like to make a little fun of me talking abut battery trains, but this is happening, and will be running on the main line in three years.

Why is this relevant here? Because it could dramatically alter the cost / benefit of decarbonising the line from Bristol / Newbury to Penzance, which I estimate would provide much better environmental benefit than reopening a line across Dartmoor.
It will also make reopening a line across Dartmoor more feaaible by avoiding the need for full electrification.

I think where you are being misunderstood is in the system being partial electrification.

So you would electrify from Parson Street to just north of Cogload Junction, then from Wellington to Stoke Cannon, from Exeter St Thomas to Starcross, from Newton Abbot to Plympton, Saltash to Bodmin Road etc.

Ie electrify all the easy plain line stuff and omit all the awkward bits that need knitting everywhere or have other isses like Bristol, Taunton, Exeter, Dawlish, Plymouth, Royal Albert Bridge etc.

There is a safety argument to this as well as the complex areas are the most difficult to maintain.

I remain sceptical about the Uckfield branch (unless someone third rails Hurst Green to Edenbridge (exclusive)and third rails or 25kVs crowborough (exclusive) to Uckfield but see it as ideal for the Redhill to Guildford line with the proviso that the third rail is extended half a mile from the junction with the Portsmouth line to Shalford snd preferably the Ash Gap is electrified.

Ashford to Hastings seems a no brainer for 25kV as for as three Oaks then third rail for the last mile through the tunnel to Ore.
 

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I’ve got a feeling that it is. I’m going to have to do a bit of research if I’m going to stake my reputation (and username) on it though.
I’ll get back to you on it. Give me a couple of days. ;)
I don't think wires will ever reach this line as battery tech will lead on quieter routes like this. Maybe isolated charge up lengths but not the whole route.
 

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I’m being snarky, I know, but you can’t determine that something is ‘worth it’ unless you know how much it will cost.

Rebuilding Exter Central could, conceivably, cost £100m. Doing that to save the odd delay at St David’s doesn’t sound like it would be worth it to me.
Plus isn't it only double track between the two stations so putting in 4 tracks at Central doesn't seem worthwhile as you just move the bottleneck if there is one from Exeter Central to the line between there and Exeter St David's.

Far easier to just use the bay platform at Exeter Central to terminate the SWR services.
 

yorksrob

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So would I, but there is little support for it in certain quarters locally with nimbies in the villages north of Lewes appearing to have the ear of local politcians. Had the county council had a similar frame of mind to say, Devon CC, I suspect it would have been reopened in Network Southeast days, and it certainly would not have shut in the first place, with the offer of diversion via Hamsey for a small fee being taken up.

I've no sympathy for people who move next to an old railway bed, then complain when it gets reopened.
 

Bald Rick

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It will also make reopening a line across Dartmoor more feaaible by avoiding the need for full electrification.

I wouldn’t say ‘more feasible’, I’d say ‘less expensive’. IIRC, the £875m estimate (now approaching 7 years old), didn’t include electrification.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I've no sympathy for people who move next to an old railway bed, then complain when it gets reopened.

The law doesn’t agree with you.
 

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Is a partial elrctrification scheme like that enough to handle freight? how are we doing for battery electric heavy haul? ( given it also solves wiring terminals, well, I hope ).
 

21C101

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Is a partial elrctrification scheme like that enough to handle freight? how are we doing for battery electric heavy haul? ( given it also solves wiring terminals, well, I hope ).
Nothing stopping later infill if the freight traffic justifies it. Even then you would not need to wire most of Bristol Temple Meads for example.


A new generation a.c. traction equipped version of the Class 73 electro diesel (or electro petrol) would probably be a better idea though as there will always be places freight locos need to go that are not electrified, a loco has limited fuel storage space and the fuel density of petrol/diesel is far higher than batteries.
 

30907

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I think where you are being misunderstood is in the system being partial electrification.

So you would electrify from Parson Street to just north of Cogload Junction, then from Wellington to Stoke Cannon, from Exeter St Thomas to Starcross, from Newton Abbot to Plympton, Saltash to Bodmin Road etc.

Ie electrify all the easy plain line stuff and omit all the awkward bits that need knitting everywhere or have other isses like Bristol, Taunton, Exeter, Dawlish, Plymouth, Royal Albert Bridge etc.
Very interesting. Have you a source for this proposal? Uncle Roger only mentions the immediate proposals as per Bald Rick above.
 

Bald Rick

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Is a partial elrctrification scheme like that enough to handle freight? how are we doing for battery electric heavy haul? ( given it also solves wiring terminals, well, I hope ).

We’re way off topic here, but BNSF are trialling a 2.4MWh battery heavy haul loco; that’s the equivalent of a Class 66 on full power for an hour. I suspect that within a decade we will be at the point where a battery / OLE hybrid loco could manage electrification gaps of up to 50 miles.
 

Irascible

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We’re way off topic here, but BNSF are trialling a 2.4MWh battery heavy haul loco; that’s the equivalent of a Class 66 on full power for an hour. I suspect that within a decade we will be at the point where a battery / OLE hybrid loco could manage electrification gaps of up to 50 miles.
Just trying to see where the future is going to bring costs down - a couple of km of wiring on the main line & something like that could handle the Fowey clay traffic all day. If the battery trials for the 800s work I guess you could cut the cost of wiring to down here by at least half, presumably more if you can get it fine grained enough to be dodging bridges.
 
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