Are LNERs timetable plans still going ahead?

[Hadders]

Doesn't look like you'll be able to get a LNER train from Stevenage to Peterborough. A 30 minute journey becomes 50 minutes.

 

[43074]

So the long running London to Lincoln service loses it's Peterborough stop? Definitely a downgrade to the service there!

The EMR Lincoln to Peterborough service will be hourly and will run earlier and later by then though, it doesn't really contribute anything calling there. There are plenty of other trains between London and Peterborough for instance.

 

[sjm77]

So the long running London to Lincoln service loses it's Peterborough stop? Definitely a downgrade to the service there!

Disappointing yes, but I would hardly call it a 'long running' service!

 

[YorksLad12]

Doesn't look like you'll be able to get a LNER train from Stevenage to Peterborough. A 30 minute journey becomes 50 minutes.

Route C stops at both, every two hours. I'd guess that some of the later evening services across whichever routes are running will also stop at both (I don't think the Leeds service will be 2 hours all day, just MF daytime).

 

[Halish Railway]

Doesn't look like you'll be able to get a LNER train from Stevenage to Peterborough. A 30 minute journey becomes 50 minutes.

Grantham to Peterborough is another one that loses out, becoming only 1tp2h. Whereas Stevenage to Peterborough will be a 12 car train every 30 minutes, Grantham to Peterborough will have to make do with an hourly 2 car 156/158 in addition to the infrequent LNER service. Let’s hope that we see EMR using 3 car 170s using the fast lines all of the way to Peterborough like to good old Central Trains days.

 

[43094]

A 10-car can call at Horsforth on the Up (towards Leeds), providing the rear unit is locked out.

It cannot call on the Down (towards Harrogate).

 

[YorksLad12]

Is there an indicative table (yet) somewhere showing which routes depart King's Cross at which minutes past the hour? I'm trying to understand how the four Open Access services fit in with the three LNER services that run every two hours. I've probably mis-counted somewhere...

 

[Halish Railway]

Is there an indicative table (yet) somewhere showing which routes depart King's Cross at which minutes past the hour? I'm trying to understand how the four Open Access services fit in with the three LNER services that run every two hours. I've probably mis-counted somewhere...

The only thing we know so far is that the TL/GN services will remain in the same paths, however, the Peterborough service might be swapped with the Cambridge service, although I’m not sure where I remember reading that.

 

[43074]

The only thing we know so far is that the TL/GN services will remain in the same paths, however, the Peterborough service might be swapped with the Cambridge service, although I’m not sure where I remember reading that.

The original NR/industry Thameslink concept timetables had the Peterborough and Cambridge paths the other way around, however the GTR franchise bid timetable swapped them around and that has become the timetable which operates now.

Is there an indicative table (yet) somewhere showing which routes depart King's Cross at which minutes past the hour? I'm trying to understand how the four Open Access services fit in with the three LNER services that run every two hours. I've probably mis-counted somewhere...

The closest thing in the public domain is the table with the route codes which shows the order they will depart from Kings Cross, but not the departure times.

 

[YorksLad12]

The only thing we know so far is that the TL/GN services will remain in the same paths, however, the Peterborough service might be swapped with the Cambridge service, although I’m not sure where I remember reading that.

The original NR/industry Thameslink concept timetables had the Peterborough and Cambridge paths the other way around, however the GTR franchise bid timetable swapped them around and that has become the timetable which operates now.


The closest thing in the public domain is the table with the route codes which shows the order they will depart from Kings Cross, but not the departure times.

Thanks both. I'm assuming it will be similar to now, with pairs at opposite half-hours (Edinburgh at xx:00 and xx30, Leeds at xx:03 and xx:33), and that someone will have worked it out in order to find the paths - but we're years away from a public timetable, I know

 

[Pacerman99]

I tried making my own timetable as a summer project about a year ago, and hopefully some of you might find my ideas interesting. The paths avalable from KGX are xx:00 & 30, xx:03 & 33, xx:08 & 38, xx:19 & 49, xx:27 & xx:57 I believe, off peak and excluding open access services.
If you slot the new 2 hr Leeds services into the xx:19 & xx:49 paths, then they use similar paths into Leeds than at present, so it might make sense to use those ones for the fast services. Then xx:00 and xx:30 for Edinburghs, XX:03 & XX:33 for Middlesborough & Open Access services, then XX:08 & XX:38 for the 'stopping' Harrogate/Lincoln services (each of which is every 2 hours), and the Newcastle service.
That would kind of make sense, as a XX:03 departure for Middlesborough service, and XX:08 departure for Newcastle service would allow for a reasonably consistant 3tph from KGX to Peterborough.

One big problem with this though is that an xx:19 fast Leeds service would soon catch up with a XX:08 Newcastle service towards Doncaster, so I don't know how that can be mitigated.

Interestingly, Saturday services will be kept at 5tph but Sunday services increased to 6tph. Anyone know what the proposed weekend service patterns are?

 

[43074]

One big problem with this though is that an xx:19 fast Leeds service would soon catch up with a XX:08 Newcastle service towards Doncaster, so I don't know how that can be mitigated.

Mostly with the faster acceleration of the Azumas compared to the 91 and HST timings on stopping services and a slightly longer gap between departures from Kings Cross than you suggest.

 

[SeanG]

Looks as though York looses 1tp2h to Newcastle

 

[Halish Railway]

Looks as though York looses 1tp2h to Newcastle

No, it will gain 1tp2h.

Current LNER:
London to Edinburgh fast
London to Edinburgh Semi fast

Future LNER:
London to Edinburgh very fast (1tp2h)
London to Edinburgh semi fast
London to Newcastle stopping

 

[Class 170101]

Northallerton to the north will be slower too via TPE at all times rather than the broadly two hourly service as now.

 

[YorksLad12]

It took me longer than I'd planned (with several mis-steps) but I tried drawing out the frequency of the new LNER timetable, with the open access operators added in as well. It's based on the information in the table towards the start of this thread, plus the OA pages on Wiki. Ideally it needs to be in departure order, but we don't know that yet.

Any good? Worth developing and correcting?

 

[Halish Railway]

It took me longer than I'd planned (with several mis-steps) but I tried drawing out the frequency of the new LNER timetable, with the open access operators added in as well. It's based on the information in the table towards the start of this thread, plus the OA pages on Wiki. Ideally it needs to be in departure order, but we don't know that yet.

Any good? Worth developing and correcting?

It looks pretty good to me. One bit of feedback I'd give is to use a dotted line for the services operating every 2 hours (only the Middlesborough service and Bradford extensions) and a tram line (I'm not sure whether thats what its called) for the irregular LNER extensions and open access services. Adding on the other ECML LDHS services might make the map a bit cluttered so just King's Cross departures is fine for now.

 

[swt_passenger]

It took me longer than I'd planned (with several mis-steps) but I tried drawing out the frequency of the new LNER timetable, with the open access operators added in as well. It's based on the information in the table towards the start of this thread, plus the OA pages on Wiki. Ideally it needs to be in departure order, but we don't know that yet.

Any good? Worth developing and correcting?

Could I please suggest moving Darlington to Newcastle above Thirsk to Middlesbrough?
But Sunderland - I’m not quite sure about, but it may need to stay above Newcastle for the LNER service, but it needs to be above Middlesbrough anyway?

 

[hexagon789]

Aren't LNER taking over the TPE paths north of Newcastle as well?

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren't LNER taking over the TPE paths north of Newcastle as well?

Only according to relatively recent speculation, nothing’s been decided.

 

[Halish Railway]

Aren't LNER taking over the TPE paths north of Newcastle as well?

I can't think of anywhere else other than on this forum when that was discussed. It doesn't help that TPE only opertated a full hourly service north of England for 1-2 months before lockdown, meaning that they didn't have long to eat into LNER and CrossCountry's market share and prove its financial viabillity.

A third LNER path north of Newcastle might be difficult to timetable; assuming that the service terminating at Newcastle is extended it might have to go non-stop to Edinburgh as it will probably be timed so that the fast London to Edinbugh service arrives into Newcastle just a few minutes after the service terminating at Newcastle arrives, although we'll have to wait and see what the May 2022 timetable will look like.

 

[hexagon789]

Only according to relatively recent speculation, nothing’s been decided.

Fair enough, I couldn't find the source if the original speculation so I wasn't sure of the background or what was actually going on with this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2021 ==

I can't think of anywhere else other than on this forum when that was discussed. It doesn't help that TPE only opertated a full hourly service north of England for 1-2 months before lockdown, meaning that they didn't have long to eat into LNER and CrossCountry's market share and prove its financial viabillity.

A third LNER path north of Newcastle might be difficult to timetable; assuming that the service terminating at Newcastle is extended it might have to go non-stop to Edinburgh as it will probably be timed so that the fast London to Edinbugh service arrives into Newcastle just a few minutes after the service terminating at Newcastle arrives, although we'll have to wait and see what the May 2022 timetable will look like.

Unless it halts in Newcastle for a bit, allows the fast to overtake and then makes a Morpeth call as per the TPEs?

 

[class26]

It looks pretty good to me. One bit of feedback I'd give is to use a dotted line for the services operating every 2 hours (only the Middlesborough service and Bradford extensions) and a tram line (I'm not sure whether thats what its called) for the irregular LNER extensions and open access services. Adding on the other ECML LDHS services might make the map a bit cluttered so just King's Cross departures is fine for now.

Lincoln`s are also every two hours

 

[YorksLad12]

It looks pretty good to me. One bit of feedback I'd give is to use a dotted line for the services operating every 2 hours (only the Middlesborough service and Bradford extensions) and a tram line (I'm not sure whether thats what its called) for the irregular LNER extensions and open access services. Adding on the other ECML LDHS services might make the map a bit cluttered so just King's Cross departures is fine for now.

Ta. I have a dislike of dashed lines (especially when a map has two types of dashed lines with different lengths that you can't easily distinguish), but I can try it and see how it works. The "tram lines" way might work better though. I did toy with adding in *every* service, such as the Leeds-Aberdeen one (isn't there an LNER Hull train too?)... but life's too short, and the diagram is busy enough

Could I please suggest moving Darlington to Newcastle above Thirsk to Middlesbrough?
But Sunderland - I’m not quite sure about, but it may need to stay above Newcastle for the LNER service, but it needs to be above Middlesbrough anyway?

You've spotted the issue (one of them) - trying to diagram Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesborough and Northallerton sensibly. I could, I think, move Thirsk and Northallerton down below Darlington so it makes more geographic sense? In fact, I wish I'd thought of that myself earlier instead of just grouping stations to suit the GC service... Fortunately, the dots and labels are all 10mm apart vertically, so relatively easy to do.

Lincoln`s are also every two hours

Hence the grey dot rather than a black one. The table upthread makes it sound like an hourly service though.