S-Bahn-Manchester?

[Purple Orange]

Are you intending to reroute the Bangor service via the Mid-Cheshire line then under this plan?

Yes, as per the suggestion in the DfT consultation.

 

[JonathanH]

If “everywhere-to-everywhere” is an issue, and there are a maximum 10 or 12 tph permitted through Castlefield, why couldn’t we utilise the chord to it’s maximum capability?

You would be using too much of the capacity at Victoria that you need available to relieve Castlefield.

 

[Purple Orange]

You would be using too much of the capacity at Victoria that you need available to relieve Castlefield.

Therefore if such a scenario was to be implemented, what services would need to give way? Atherton line services may be moving to Tram-Train in future years for example.

 

[Gareth]

I'd envision something like...

4tph Rochdale*
4tph Wigan*
4tph CLC

8tph Manchester Airport*
4tph Stockport*

*plus extensions

Like Thameslink, there'd be a mix of stopping and semifast services, although everything would call at Deansgate, Oxford Road & Piccadilly.

Not sure how I'd work the rest of the services around this though.

 

[jonnyfan]

I do like this Takt idea, simple 2tph pairs of services to the same/similar destinations. Makes operations easier and surely much easier for passengers

My ideas...

CASTLEFIELD [all calling at Deansgate, Oxford Road & Piccadilly]
2tph Blackpool North to Airport via Bolton - 6 car Class 331s
2tph Southport to Alderley Edge via Bolton - 3 car Class 195s
2tph Rochdale to Airport via Victoria - 3 car Class 195s
2tph Lime Street to Cleethorpes (1tph) / Nottingham (1tph) via Warrington Central - 6 car Class 185s
2tph Lime Street to Airport via Newton-le-Willows (all stops) - 3 car Class 331s
2tph Warrington Central to Oxford Road - 3 car Class 195s

All standardised as much as possible so can use @Bletchleyite idea for marking out door positions & all units have high performance

AIRPORT LINE
2tph Piccadilly to Crewe via Airport (all stops)
2tph Blackpool North to Airport via Bolton & Oxford Road (fast Piccadilly to MIA)
2tph Rochdale to Airport via Victoria & Oxford Road (fast Piccadilly to MIA)
2tph Lime Street to Airport via Newton-le-Willows & Oxford Road (all stops)

All stations on the Airport line can have 4 tph

VICTORIA
2tph Clitheroe/Blackburn to Stalybridge via Bolton
2tph Kirkby/Wigan to Leeds/Blackburn via Atherton
1tph Glasgow/Edinburgh to Victoria via Bolton (calls at Chorley & Bolton only after Preston)
1tph Barrow/Windermere to Victoria via Bolton (calls at Chorley & Bolton only after Preston)
2tph Lime Street to Newcastle (1tph) / Scarborough (1tph)
2tph Chester to Newcastle (1tph) / Redcar (1tph)
2tph Victoria to Leeds via Halifax
(1tph Peak only Wigan to Victoria via Atherton)

Trans Pennine services all run through Victoria, so the Calder Valley trains can terminate in the bays at Victoria - the TPE units are too long for the bays, saves shunting units around into sidings etc.

Passengers from the North East via Trans Pennine can change at Victoria for direct Airport services.
Passengers from the Calder Valley can change at Rochdale for direct Airport services.
Passengers from the North West via WCML can change at Preston or Bolton for direct Airport services
Passengers from stations between Chester & Earlestown can change at Newton-le-Willows for direct Airport services

The North Wales service would run via Mid-Cheshire line (calls at Northwich, Knutsford, Altrincham & Stockport) - as discussed in MRTF Consultation

 

[Purple Orange]

I do like this Takt idea, simple 2tph pairs of services to the same/similar destinations. Makes operations easier and surely much easier for passengers

My ideas...

CASTLEFIELD [all calling at Deansgate, Oxford Road & Piccadilly]
2tph Blackpool North to Airport via Bolton - 6 car Class 331s
2tph Southport to Alderley Edge via Bolton - 3 car Class 195s
2tph Rochdale to Airport via Victoria - 3 car Class 195s
2tph Lime Street to Cleethorpes (1tph) / Nottingham (1tph) via Warrington Central - 6 car Class 185s
2tph Lime Street to Airport via Newton-le-Willows (all stops) - 3 car Class 331s
2tph Warrington Central to Oxford Road - 3 car Class 195s

All standardised as much as possible so can use @Bletchleyite idea for marking out door positions & all units have high performance

AIRPORT LINE
2tph Piccadilly to Crewe via Airport (all stops)
2tph Blackpool North to Airport via Bolton & Oxford Road (fast Piccadilly to MIA)
2tph Rochdale to Airport via Victoria & Oxford Road (fast Piccadilly to MIA)
2tph Lime Street to Airport via Newton-le-Willows & Oxford Road (all stops)

All stations on the Airport line can have 4 tph

VICTORIA
2tph Clitheroe/Blackburn to Stalybridge via Bolton
2tph Kirkby/Wigan to Leeds/Blackburn via Atherton
1tph Glasgow/Edinburgh to Victoria via Bolton (calls at Chorley & Bolton only after Preston)
1tph Barrow/Windermere to Victoria via Bolton (calls at Chorley & Bolton only after Preston)
2tph Lime Street to Newcastle (1tph) / Scarborough (1tph)
2tph Chester to Newcastle (1tph) / Redcar (1tph)
2tph Victoria to Leeds via Halifax
(1tph Peak only Wigan to Victoria via Atherton)

Trans Pennine services all run through Victoria, so the Calder Valley trains can terminate in the bays at Victoria - the TPE units are too long for the bays, saves shunting units around into sidings etc.

Passengers from the North East via Trans Pennine can change at Victoria for direct Airport services.
Passengers from the Calder Valley can change at Rochdale for direct Airport services.
Passengers from the North West via WCML can change at Preston or Bolton for direct Airport services
Passengers from stations between Chester & Earlestown can change at Newton-le-Willows for direct Airport services

The North Wales service would run via Mid-Cheshire line (calls at Northwich, Knutsford, Altrincham & Stockport) - as discussed in MRTF Consultation

Would it not make sense to have Southport services ending at a destination that is not electrified, such as Buxton? This would enable EMUs to run on a Piccadilly-Alderley Edge service, reducing the need for DMUs under wires.

Similarly should the 2 tph Chester TPE service not run to Middlesbrough & Scunthorpe, with the 2 tph Liverpool TPE services all going to Newcastle, making best use of the 802s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it not make sense to have Southport services ending at a destination that is not electrified, such as Buxton? This would enable EMUs to run on a Piccadilly-Alderley Edge service, reducing the need for DMUs under wires.

Interesting you mention Southport-Buxton as I believe that's been done before. Southport-Chester via Altrincham was another common one in the 1990s.

 

[Ianno87]

Interesting you mention Southport-Buxton as I believe that's been done before. Southport-Chester via Altrincham was another common one in the 1990s.

Blackpool-Buxton was done hourly from 1993 to 2008.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blackpool-Buxton was done hourly from 1993 to 2008.

Ah, yes, it was Blackpool-Buxton and Southport-Chester.

 

[jonnyfan]

Would it not make sense to have Southport services ending at a destination that is not electrified, such as Buxton? This would enable EMUs to run on a Piccadilly-Alderley Edge service, reducing the need for DMUs under wires.

Similarly should the 2 tph Chester TPE service not run to Middlesbrough & Scunthorpe, with the 2 tph Liverpool TPE services all going to Newcastle, making best use of the 802s.

Good shout on the Southport to Buxton, matching up the diesels would make more sense. Then 2tph Piccadilly to Alderley Edge via Stockport as a EMU service.

And with TPE I would say yes, pairing the Lime Street to Newcastle at 30 minute intervals would be good, I suppose currently they split the destinations to provide Airport direct services.

 

[Ianno87]

Good shout on the Southport to Buxton, matching up the diesels would make more sense. Then 2tph Piccadilly to Alderley Edge via Stockport as a EMU service.

Although when Blackpool-Buxton ran, it was hardly a shining beacon of reliability.

 

[Purple Orange]

Although when Blackpool-Buxton ran, it was hardly a shining beacon of reliability.

But then neither has the Southport service in recent years. Perhaps the latest proposals for Southport trains to go through Victoria is best.

 

[jonnyfan]

Although when Blackpool-Buxton ran, it was hardly a shining beacon of reliability.

I suppose that is always the risk of linking up services across Manchester, I would hope that the work done with MRTF and simplified services would improve overall reliability across all routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But then neither has the Southport service in recent years. Perhaps the latest proposals for Southport trains to go through Victoria is best.

I suppose the upside for Sandgrounders is that Vic tends to end up in a mess less than Castlefield does. Even if option C is chosen, it's still going to choke up half the North West if a unit breaks down or there's a medical emergency at Deansgate or Picc. While a blocked platform at Vic would still be a problem, it at least has another pair so the whole job isn't stopped.

One thing the proposals don't address (probably because it's not really Network Rail's job) is the other elephant in the room - crew changes in central Manchester - is that still going on? If so it needs to stop. Also, the unit and crew diagrams need to be kept fixed within a given route - this will be less efficient, but does mean that if the system does end up in a mess you can bring it back where it should be with a few judicious cancellations like Merseyrail does in such an event. If you have a unit and crew that are just going Southport-Rochdale and back all day (or whatever) on an hourly service and it ends up 45 minutes late (say), you can sort the mess out just by canning a round trip, or if it's not that late turning one short. You can't do that if the crew or unit is going Southport-Rochdale-Vic-Leeds-Vic-Kirkby, or whatever mess they've managed to come up with.

This was actually a key downfall of the now-dead-and-unlikely-to-be-back LNR through services across Birmingham - a problem on one of the branches knackered everything as the interworking was just too complex.

 

[Ianno87]

I suppose the upside for Sandgrounders is that Vic tends to end up in a mess less than Castlefield does. Even if option C is chosen, it's still going to choke up half the North West if a unit breaks down or there's a medical emergency at Deansgate or Picc. While a blocked platform at Vic would still be a problem, it at least has another pair so the whole job isn't stopped.

One thing the proposals don't address (probably because it's not really Network Rail's job) is the other elephant in the room - crew changes in central Manchester - is that still going on? If so it needs to stop. Also, the unit and crew diagrams need to be kept fixed within a given route - this will be less efficient, but does mean that if the system does end up in a mess you can bring it back where it should be with a few judicious cancellations like Merseyrail does in such an event. If you have a unit and crew that are just going Southport-Rochdale and back all day (or whatever) on an hourly service and it ends up 45 minutes late (say), you can sort the mess out just by canning a round trip, or if it's not that late turning one short. You can't do that if the crew or unit is going Southport-Rochdale-Vic-Leeds-Vic-Kirkby, or whatever mess they've managed to come up with.

This was actually a key downfall of the now-dead-and-unlikely-to-be-back LNR through services across Birmingham - a problem on one of the branches knackered everything as the interworking was just too complex.

...and why Thameslink and GTR's timetable work well. Drivers kept on lines of route, minimal mid-route changeovers (and none in the core) etc. etc.

 

[adrock1976]

My suggestion is as follows:

Southport - Stalybridge via Bolton every 30 minutes, calling all stations except Ince (New Lane and Bescar Lane alternating every 60 minutes) and the ones between Bolton-Salford Crescent

Wigan Wallgate - Huddersfield via Bolton and Victoria every 30 minutes, calling all stations except Ince

Wigan North Western - Hazel Grove via Atherton every 30 minutes, calling all stations

Rochdale - Airport via Ordsall Curve every 30 minutes, calling all stations

Clitheroe/Blackburn - Stalybridge via Bolton and Victoria every 30 minutes, calling all stations except ones between Bolton-Salford Crescent

Wigan North Western - Blackburn via Atherton, Victoria, and Todmorden calling all stations to Vic, then Rochdale, Littleborough, Todmorden, Burnley M Road, Rose Grove, Accrington

Warrington Central - Airport every 30 minutes, calling all stations (and with the Rochdale, this provides a combined frequency of every 15 minutes between Deansgate and Airport)

Preston - Airport via Bolton every 30 minutes, calling all stations to Piccadilly, then East Didsbury (for Metrolink)

Blackpool North - Airport via Wigan NW and Golborne Jct every 30 minutes, calling Kirkham & Wesham, Preston, Wigan NW, Eccles (for Metrolink), Deansgate, Oxford Rd, Piccadilly, and East Didsbury (for Metrolink)

Regional Express from Barrow and Scotland - Airport every 30 minutes between Lancaster and Airport, calling Preston, Chorley, Bolton, Salford Crescent, Deansgate, Oxford Rd, Piccadilly, and East Didsbury (for Metrolink)

The routes bolded above are trains running through Castlefield Junction. I have based this on the assumption that the North Wales trains will switch to Victoria. Also, the assumption that the Liverpool LS - Crewe all stations via Manchester is split Liverpool LS - Victoria, and Piccadilly - Crewe both running via Stockport. Crewe - Airport to run every 30 minutes calling all stations (alternating between Goostrey and Chelford). I have also assumed Wigan Wallgate - Kirkby is transferred to Merseyrail.

I have all trains calling at Salford Crescent, which would provide an interchange between the Piccadilly and Victoria trains. Also, all trains would call at Deansgate, Oxford Rd, and Piccadilly, and the Airport line all trains call at East Didsbury for Metrolink interchange.

Regarding the rolling stock, I have based on the assumption that the converted 319s will be in service (hopefully before 2025).

 

[Fokx]

One thing the proposals don't address (probably because it's not really Network Rail's job) is the other elephant in the room - crew changes in central Manchester - is that still going on? If so it needs to stop.

Crew changes take place officially at Piccadilly 1-12, Oxford Rd (Northern only) and Victoria.

There are no official booked crew changes at Piccadilly 13/14 or Deansgate in normal operation.

The chord service or taxis are used to get drivers and conductors to Vic from Pic

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crew changes take place officially at Piccadilly 1-12, Oxford Rd (Northern only) and Victoria.

There are no official booked crew changes at Piccadilly 13/14 or Deansgate in normal operation.

The chord service or taxis are used to get drivers and conductors to Vic from Pic

OK, then they need (for a Thameslink like approach) to pack in doing them at Oxford Road and Vic, particularly the former. A busy city centre core with only 7 usable through platforms in total (3 at Oxford Road*, 4 at Vic) is not the place to do this.

Terminal platforms at Picc, fine.

* 1 is to all intents and purposes disused due to lack of lift

 

[jonnyfan]

OK, then they need (for a Thameslink like approach) to pack in doing them at Oxford Road and Vic, particularly the former. A busy city centre core with only 7 usable through platforms in total (3 at Oxford Road*, 4 at Vic) is not the place to do this.

Terminal platforms at Picc, fine.

* 1 is to all intents and purposes disused due to lack of lift

It would be a mighty big task to end the crew changes at Oxford Road, Northern Piccadilly crew depot generally do not sign any routes north of Manchester & only the CLC line to Liverpool (except maybe a fifth of drivers that sign up to Preston, but not conductors) and the depots north of Manchester do not sign routes south out of Piccadilly (except the Airport line, which pretty much every depot signs, and some sign along to Stockport and Hazel Grove, some Victoria drivers also sign the mid-Cheshire line).
I absolutely agree the crew changes shouldn't take place at Oxford Road, it would be a big undertaking to get lots of train crew trained on all new routes. In terms of service resilience and reliability it's something that should be tackled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I absolutely agree the crew changes shouldn't take place at Oxford Road, it would be a big undertaking to get lots of train crew trained on all new routes. In terms of service resilience and reliability it's something that should be tackled.

Absolutely.

The two big elements of Thameslink are "how can we ensure trains enter the core in the correct path", and "how can we ensure the core itself doesn't get stopped". Not having crew changes there is a key part of the latter. A load of route-learning, while time-consuming, would seem a relatively cheap price to pay for all this by shifting the crew changes out to more resilient locations - if not the outer termini, then places with more platforms and fewer trains using them (and places where you could terminate short without blocking everything if the crew aren't available) such as Preston.

 

[Fokx]

So where do you propose that crew changes take place considering Victoria has a reasonably sized Northern train crew depot and you’ve previously stated that most TPE services shouldn’t use the chord? How would TPE Piccadilly drivers (who largely operate the western-side Nova 3) take over services?

 

[Ianno87]

So where do you propose that crew changes take place considering Victoria has a reasonably sized Northern train crew depot and you’ve previously stated that most TPE services shouldn’t use the chord? How would TPE Piccadilly drivers (who largely operate the western-side Nova 3) take over services?

Move the train crew depot to Manchester Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Move the train crew depot to Manchester Airport.

And/or to Huddersfield etc - even if they book on at Picc and jump a train out there as a passenger as the first thing they do.

This thread is a bit more radical than the "which option" one - the premise is to apply Thameslink principles to give a really, really reliable Castlefield - there wouldn't be a City Thameslink crew depot?

 

[HST43257]

This idea may be a bit over the top, but if the track layout of the Manchester to Stockport route is changed, I reckon you could get many more Castlefield paths.

Simplify the layout between Longsight and Levenshulme. Don’t have anything crossing the tracks and move the platforms at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel. With these changes, have a flyover/diveunder from the (new) Stockport slow lines to the Hazel Grove route. 2tph to Buxton + freight + any peak or future extras would use it.

I reckon that’s one step to getting up to 16tph overall on Castlefield.

 

[EastisECML]

The way the slow and fast tracks on the Stockport - Longsight line get in each others way definitely needs to be resolved. Either with the southbound slow track flying over the two fast tracks or as suggested above pairing the slow and fast tracks together and rebuilding all of the stations to suit.

 

[43096]

The way the slow and fast tracks on the Stockport - Longsight line get in each others way definitely needs to be resolved. Either with the southbound slow track flying over the two fast tracks or as suggested above pairing the slow and fast tracks together and rebuilding all of the stations to suit.

Pairing by speed rather than by direction was suggested previously when the Ansaldo resignalling was done. Whilst superficially attractive it has problems: the cost of rebuilding Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme stations, the loss for passengers of one island per direction at Stockport and all it does is move the fast/slow up/down manoeuvre southwards. A grade separated junction in the Slade Lane Junction area is the proper solution.

 

[HST43257]

A grade separated junction in the Slade Lane Junction area is the proper solution.

Not at all. Buxton to Manchester passengers would still have to cross the full alignment, solving less problems than double track grade separation south of Stockport. Spend a bit more money to solve the entire solution.

 

[43096]

Not at all. Buxton to Manchester passengers would still have to cross the full alignment, solving less problems than double track grade separation south of Stockport. Spend a bit more money to solve the entire solution.

Eh? If you're going to go into single service groups, take the Liverpool-Nottingham service. Grade separation at Slade Lane would give it much easier passing from the Castlefield corridor to the Hazel Grove line without having to cross the fast lines on the flat.

Grade separated junctions are always a better fix than moving problems or fudging solutions.

 

[adrock1976]

Has the possibility of a grade separated junction at Edgeley Junction (if that is the right name, the one south of Stockport station) ever been looked at?

This would save the trains from the Hazel Grove direction having to cross/weave across the flat junction.

 

[HST43257]

Eh? If you're going to go into single service groups, take the Liverpool-Nottingham service. Grade separation at Slade Lane would give it much easier passing from the Castlefield corridor to the Hazel Grove line without having to cross the fast lines on the flat.

Grade separated junctions are always a better fix than moving problems or fudging solutions.

If you grade separate at Edgeley (No.1) then the Hazel Grove lines don’t touch the fasts, nor does anything on Castlefield.