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Could TPE ditch the Mk5 sets?

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Jamesrob637

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Does Manchester-Cleethorpes really need double 185s for the diagrams? Pre-pandemic I would say definitely but even when things get more towards 'normal', it is expected that rail travel will be nothing like it was, particularly longer distance. Also remember that the Liverpool to Nottingham looks likely to be double 185s before long.

Not that many were actually booked 6-car pre-COVID! It was slowly becoming that way in the months leading up to March 2020.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Disagree; 4 isn't enough for anything at all, really, and as you won't have 12s running the benefit of that length is lost. Perhaps longer than 5, though; the 7-car Avanti 80x would be ideal were Liverpool not to get its extra TPH due to reduced demand. Or bin off Glasgow and just run to Edinburgh hourly; the latter has far, far higher demand from Manchester than the former, the Glasgows are generally much quieter from my observation.

7-car would be overkill on many services unless you made fares ludicrously cheap to put "bums on seats."
 
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Greybeard33

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The ROSCO has not fully paid them off with CAF. CAF don't want the things to now be a multi-million loss. The ROSCO can simply withhold payment until they work fully, and then after all the work is done and the issues are resolved, they then find a new willing home.

Undoubtedly, someone would take them off their hands. Don't ask me where, when or why; but they would. They'd have to be daft not to then take a brand new fleet of modern trains.
How will the ROSCO determine whether or not CAF has adequately fixed the reliability issues once TPE has withdrawn them? A few test runs cannot replicate squadron service.

Then how will the ROSCO convince a potential TOC customer to take the risk of replacing older but proven stock? Better the devil you know....
 

Bletchleyite

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There's not enough for Scotland, and a mixed fleet would create more problems than it would solve.

How many are they short? Could more be built to bring it up to enough?

I would put money on them not being scrapped. It'll be like Fyra - CAF will get them back, fix them properly and they will show up somewhere or other having been offered at a good price.
 

Nym

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How will the ROSCO determine whether or not CAF has adequately fixed the reliability issues once TPE has withdrawn them? A few test runs cannot replicate squadron service.

Then how will the ROSCO convince a potential TOC customer to take the risk of replacing older but proven stock? Better the devil you know....
The general issue is that payment milestones are usually linked to fault free running, so if they're not running, they're fault free, hence you need to pay them.

It would potentially be the case that the ROSCO would offer them at a very good price to keep them running so they don't need to pay for them.
 

JonathanH

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How many are they short? Could more be built to bring it up to enough?

Thirteen - ie another build of exactly the same number as the existing fleet and nothing available to haul the extra ones - forget it.

I would put money on them not being scrapped. It'll be like Fyra - CAF will get them back, fix them properly and they will show up somewhere or other having been offered at a good price.

That is a reasonably valid bet but probably not in the UK.
 

Bletchleyite

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That is a reasonably valid bet but probably not in the UK.

I wouldn't expect it to be outside the UK (though Ireland with new bogies would be a possibility). No other country wants non-standard, narrow, high-floor-but-stepless 22m coaches in fixed formations. They want standard 26.4m RIC coaches with buffers and screw couplers, of which there are loads.

At a push possibly Thailand or Malaysia rebogied to metre gauge? I can't think of anywhere else.
 

Bletchleyite

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Where would you get another 13 68s to replace all 26 ScotRail HSTs? As I understand it, it is not possible to manufacture any more, because a Stage IIIb compliant engine would not fit in the 68 bodyshell.

People keep going on about building diesel locomotives in the UK gauge being impossible, it's been said before the 68s were even built, and I don't believe it for a minute. If 68s can't be built, something else could be, potentially with multiple smaller engines FLIRT-style. But if you'd need to build the same again, I do see the issue (though could they be used elsewhere on ScotRail to allow e.g. 158s to be binned off?)

Other possibilities are Wales (who are according to Charlie Hulme's site considering taking extra 67+Mk4 sets, but could they consider Mk5s instead?) or Chiltern (who could perhaps have CAF reform them into sets of a more useful length).
 

Journeyman

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People keep going on about building diesel locomotives in the UK gauge being impossible, it's been said before the 68s were even built, and I don't believe it for a minute. If 68s can't be built, something else could be, potentially with multiple smaller engines FLIRT-style. But if you'd need to build the same again, I do see the issue (though could they be used elsewhere on ScotRail to allow e.g. 158s to be binned off?)

Other possibilities are Wales (who are according to Charlie Hulme's site considering taking extra 67+Mk4 sets, but could they consider Mk5s instead?) or Chiltern (who could perhaps have CAF reform them into sets of a more useful length).
Chiltern only use loco hauled sets because there's a shortage of DMUs. I expect they'll happily keep the Mark 3s until they can obtain DMUs to replace them.
 

Wolfie

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I wouldn't expect it to be outside the UK (though Ireland with new bogies would be a possibility). No other country wants non-standard, narrow, high-floor-but-stepless 22m coaches in fixed formations. They want standard 26.4m RIC coaches with buffers and screw couplers, of which there are loads.

At a push possibly Thailand or Malaysia rebogied to metre gauge? I can't think of anywhere else.
If sorted and the price is right l would imagine an open-access operator might be interested.
 

4-SUB 4732

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If sorted and the price is right l would imagine an open-access operator might be interested.

Massive doubt there.

I suspect a UK-based operator would want them, but as I say they need to be taken away (458s a good example as mentioned), given some form of ground-up check and modification and then be put on the market.
 

Journeyman

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If sorted and the price is right l would imagine an open-access operator might be interested.
What open access operator would that be? Can you honestly think of any untapped market in a post-COVID world?
 

Bletchleyite

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Massive doubt there.

I suspect a UK-based operator would want them, but as I say they need to be taken away (458s a good example as mentioned), given some form of ground-up check and modification and then be put on the market.

If there's a considerable improvement in fortune I wouldn't rule out TPE taking them back, potentially with an electric locomotive on the end once wires have gone up, but as things stand they do, as you say, need taking away and sorting out properly.
 

Wolfie

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What open access operator would that be? Can you honestly think of any untapped market in a post-COVID world?
Realistically it depends how long CV persists and after that how long economic recovery takes.
I absolutely agree that no one would touch them with a barge pole unless they are properly sorted. That's what l meant when l said "if sorted" at the start of my previous post.
 

4-SUB 4732

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If there's a considerable improvement in fortune I wouldn't rule out TPE taking them back, potentially with an electric locomotive on the end once wires have gone up, but as things stand they do, as you say, need taking away and sorting out properly.
Elephant in the room...

GWR?

8 diagrams Portsmouth - Cardiff, then however many out west. Huge amount of Turbos released for the future MetroWest and what not.
 

4-SUB 4732

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How long will the Castles last?
In theory the Castle HSTs are best on Bristol - Cornwall and some Cornish stuff to make sure there’s a good facilities set. Don’t want to use Turbo units on them; the 255s will eventually struggle to continue to be worthwhile.
 

Greybeard33

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I suspect a UK-based operator would want them, but as I say they need to be taken away (458s a good example as mentioned), given some form of ground-up check and modification and then be put on the market.
A further issue with that is that the ROSCO would presumably have to pay a hefty retainer to DRS to keep the 14 68s available while remarketing the Mk5As.

Remember the remote working system in the DTs is not compatible with any other class of loco, and rakes of coaches are worthless without propulsion!
 

Journeyman

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Realistically it depends how long CV persists and after that how long economic recovery takes.
I absolutely agree that no one would touch them with a barge pole unless they are properly sorted. That's what l meant when l said "if sorted" at the start of my previous post.
Whether sorted or not, I think Open Access is dead.
 

gingertom

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Where would you get another 13 68s to replace all 26 ScotRail HSTs? As I understand it, it is not possible to manufacture any more, because a Stage IIIb compliant engine would not fit in the 68 bodyshell.
by the time any of this comes to fruition it could be class 90 haulage. You read that right ;)
 

Watershed

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you could easily drop 3 coaches off at Sheffield on both services, and attach gong the other way back to Liverpool.
Not so easy actually! The trains are booked to pass each other at Sheffield. So if you attached/detached a set there, you would need an extra driver on duty at all times to shunt that set around from the northbound to the southbound platform. That's likely 2 or 3 driver diagrams to cover that duty all day, i.e. nearly £1m a year staffing cost.

You would also be using Sheffield throat capacity "unnecessarily", and the diagrams for the attached/detached unit would be quite inefficient. It would be sitting around at SHF for a third of the day (53 mins SHF-MAN, 14 mins turnaround, 53 mins back, 1 hour until next working). You would ultimately save 3 unit diagrams by going to all this effort.
 
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LowLevel

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Does Manchester-Cleethorpes really need double 185s for the diagrams? Pre-pandemic I would say definitely but even when things get more towards 'normal', it is expected that rail travel will be nothing like it was, particularly longer distance. Also remember that the Liverpool to Nottingham looks likely to be double 185s before long.

Do bear in mind that everything is up in the air so if the DfT see an advantage in 185s replacing Mk5a it is possible something else will be found for Liverpool - Nottingham. Plans don't appear to last a month at the minute.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Elephant in the room...

GWR?

8 diagrams Portsmouth - Cardiff, then however many out west. Huge amount of Turbos released for the future MetroWest and what not.

Loco-hauled trains are barred from platform 1 at Portsmouth Harbour, the platform the Pompey/Cardiff’s have been confined to since the number of long platforms there was reduced from 4 to 3.

strengthening platform 1 is said to be a very expensive job
 

JonathanH

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Lop it back to Southsea? Not ideal, though.
No. There is absolutely no point imposing impractical rolling stock on a route AND then lopping the service short.

If they are not suitable for TPE, they have no place on the UK railway network at all. I don't understand where the idea that they can be reused somewhere else is coming from. We do not have to feel any sympathy for CAF if they are building defective rolling stock.
 

Bletchleyite

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If they are not suitable for TPE, they have no place on the UK railway network at all. I don't understand where the idea that they can be reused somewhere else is coming from. We do not have to feel any sympathy for CAF if they are building defective rolling stock.

The facts that:
1. CAF won't want to scrap them or have them sat around doing nothing, because that will cost them a fortune in lost income.
2. They aren't suitable for other countries (other than the possible edge cases of Ireland and Thailand/Malaysia) due to being narrow, high floor but stepless and short vehicles. Nowhere other than the UK and Ireland is interested in such things.

...would suggest that they will, once fixed, be offered to the market at an attractive price, and thus a UK TOC is very likely to take them because of that price.
 

JonathanH

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The facts that:
1. CAF won't want to scrap them or have them sat around doing nothing, because that will cost them a fortune in lost income.
2. They aren't suitable for other countries (other than the possible edge cases of Ireland and Thailand/Malaysia) due to being narrow, high floor but stepless and short vehicles. Nowhere other than the UK and Ireland is interested in such things.

...would suggest that they will, once fixed, be offered to the market at an attractive price, and thus a UK TOC is very likely to take them because of that price.
We are about to go into a period where all sorts of fleets are going to get parked up because of a downturn in demand and the vast costs which have been racked up since March 2020. These trains are reported to be unreliable - it is not just about headline price. Operators are better off with the best elements of their existing stock and binning off anything non-standard. There are costs involved in getting staff trained, maintaining this stock, handling its unreliability beyond whatever CAF offer. One of the benefits for the operators of leasing is that you can just offload stock (outside its lease term) and the loss sits with the lease companies. The DfT appears to be under no obligation at all to allocate this stock to any other route.
 
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