Future for stored 508s

[Drsatan]

To the best of my knowledge, there are six or seven 508s in store at Telford International Railfreight Terminal. Their last user was Southeastern trains.

Does anyone know what will happen to these units, or will they be stored indefinitely?

 

[Skimble19]

There's about 12 508's stored from SET isn't there? Seems very strange, they were only recently repainted before they were stored. Hopefully they'll find use down in 3rd rail land, or on Merseyrail if they'll take 'em!

 

[Drsatan]

I assumed Southern would use them on West & East Coastway services but decided to use cascaded 313s from LOROL instead.

However, the 508s could be deployed on SWT services in multiple with 455s. They were used on South West Division surburban services in the late 1970s until being transferred to Merseyside. That way, Windsor line services could be extended to 11 cars, without Southern having to give up its 456s (which would have allowed Windsor line services to be lengthened to 10 cars)

It's a possibility assuming SWT would be prepared to accept a non-standard class.

 

[O L Leigh]

However, the 508s could be deployed on SWT services in multiple with 455s.

Nope.

Both classes have Tightlock couplers, but the Cl508's have the fully automatic version with the air and electrical connections on a connector block while the Cl455's make their air and electrical connections using old-school hoses and jumper cables.

And that's discounting the possibility that these classes are even compatible anyway. We can't run Cl315's with Cl317's in multiple except for ECS or assistance purposes because they are not fully compatible.

O L Leigh

 

[First class]

Doubt they'll becoming up to Merseyrail either. With timetable changes in December requiring even more unit availability, Merseyrail declined to accept these stored 508s, so obviously believe that they would be surplus to demands.

However, if Merseyrail were to lose units (fire, vandalism, crash etc) then they may get a bit more interested...

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds like someone should authorise a small extension of the third rail so that these could be made use of. Would there be enough to cover Southern's diesel diagrams if Hastings - Ashford and Uckfield were electrified? And since Southern wouldn't have any diesel routes they could just swap one non-standard class of train for another. (Perhaps they could be refurbished to longer distance standards).

Alternatively extend Merseyrail?

 

[tbtc]

Surely the logic thing is to replace the 158s at SWT that spend all day on the third rail routes (not the Exeter services, of course)

 

[Templecombe]

Surely the logic thing is to replace the 158s at SWT that spend all day on the third rail routes (not the Exeter services, of course)

it would be a help if they didn't use one of the 158's on the lymington branch,but these 508's will prob get the gas torch taken to them

 

[MCR247]

Sounds like someone should authorise a small extension of the third rail so that these could be made use of. Would there be enough to cover Southern's diesel diagrams if Hastings - Ashford and Uckfield were electrified? And since Southern wouldn't have any diesel routes they could just swap one non-standard class of train for another. (Perhaps they could be refurbished to longer distance standards).

Alternatively extend Merseyrail?

But 508s would be non-standard like if something went wrong

 

[mickey]

Doubt they'll becoming up to Merseyrail either. With timetable changes in December requiring even more unit availability, Merseyrail declined to accept these stored 508s, so obviously believe that they would be surplus to demands.

I don't think anyone should be encouraging anyone else to make a decision on them just yet...
What I mean, of course, is that Merseyrail's decision is a gamble (albeit a carefully considered and justified for now one), and come next year there's a chance they'll have to change their mind. In which case it would be disastrous if they'd gone to Hastings!

 

[tbtc]

it would be a help if they didn't use one of the 158's on the lymington branch,but these 508's will prob get the gas torch taken to them

Yeah, that's the one, couldn't remember the name of the branch.

Using 508s on self contained diagrams there (plus, are there other 158 diagrams exclusively on the third rail?) would only free one or two 158s, but these additional carriages would be appreciated on routes like Cardiff - Portsmouth/ Liverpool - Nottingham etc where 158s are running at capacity

If we are cutting up EMUs whilst using DMUs on electrified routes at the same time that we have crowding problems on existing DMU routes then... I give up!

 

[MCR247]

Yeah, that's the one, couldn't remember the name of the branch.

Using 508s on self contained diagrams there (plus, are there other 158 diagrams exclusively on the third rail?) would only free one or two 158s, but these additional carriages would be appreciated on routes like Cardiff - Portsmouth/ Liverpool - Nottingham etc where 158s are running at capacity

If we are cutting up EMUs whilst using DMUs on electrified routes at the same time that we have crowding problems on existing DMU routes then... I give up!

I also don't see why they don't use 313/508s on the Lymington branch, and the non-standard fleet excuse doesn't really work

 

[tbtc]

I also don't see why they don't use 313/508s on the Lymington branch, and the non-standard fleet excuse doesn't really work

They could use a different 508 each day of the week on the route (so there are plenty of spares), which would free up badly needed Sprinters

 

[387star]

Talking of fleets moving around how about using the new ScotRail desiros (a small pool) on the Manchester-Glasgow services... or even the 334s if appropriately refurbished...

 

[Scousefandan]

It'd be nice to see them on the Northern Line beyond Kirkby, to Wigan Wallgate....if Merseyrail ever decide to get round to electrifiying that far...and if GMPTE don't drag their feet over it

 

[Bastiaan]

Talking of fleets moving around how about using the new ScotRail desiros (a small pool) on the Manchester-Glasgow services... or even the 334s if appropriately refurbished...

Excellent idea! Just fit them with a diesel motor or electrify Manchester to Lowton Jn. and you're done! :P

 

[yorksrob]

But 508s would be non-standard like if something went wrong

This is quite true - My thinking is that as the diesels on Southern are already in effect non-standard to the rest of their trains, Southern would in effect be swapping one non-standard fleet for another so they wouldn’t end up any worse off.

these 508's will prob get the gas torch taken to them

That would be an appalling waste of resources if it were allowed to happen.

(plus, are there other 158 diagrams exclusively on the third rail?)

I’m not sure there are though. Someone could probably confirm this but I suspect most if not all of their diagrams include the unelectrified network north west of the Basingstoke - Weymouth line.

Let’s hope they’re put in warm storage somewhere and run around the block every now and again so that they don’t deteriorate.

 

[tbtc]

I’m not sure there are though. Someone could probably confirm this but I suspect most if not all of their diagrams include the unelectrified network north west of the Basingstoke - Weymouth line

You may well be right; I had a memory of someone discussing 158 trips on electrified lines, but this was probably either due to EMU shortages or on a duty that involved at least some unelectrified track at some stage in the day

Still, even if it only saves the one 158 on the branch, it'd be worth it

 

[yorksrob]

I can't disagree with you there. I was railing against the withdrawal of the Lymington CIG's a short while back for just that reason

 

[MCR247]

This is quite true - My thinking is that as the diesels on Southern are already in effect non-standard to the rest of their trains, Southern would in effect be swapping one non-standard fleet for another so they wouldn’t end up any worse off.

Not really, 171s have dellner couplers (thats why they're 171s) so they aren't that non-standard, as a 171 can couple to a failed 377 and the other way around. If a 508 failed, that'd be it

 

[Fincra5]

Same with 313, if it fails its basically done for unless a shunter or another 313 can come and rescue it. It was so much simpler with a sem-standard fleet of 377s and 171s.

 

[466.networkers]

Not really, 171s have dellner couplers (thats why they're 171s) so they aren't that non-standard, as a 171 can couple to a failed 377 and the other way around. If a 508 failed, that'd be it

There are 6 or more perfectly fine and useable SET 508s - if SN had 4, with 2 in service and 2 spare, if one broke down - send a spare to recover it!

That's what Southeastern do with the 466s - send another 466 or a 465 to bring it back to depot.

 

[Fincra5]

Well if a 377 fails it can be pushed by a 171 if it is behind, thus clearling the line quickish. The Marsh Link line would have to be electrified to make use of them.

 

[yorksrob]

Not really, 171s have dellner couplers (thats why they're 171s) so they aren't that non-standard, as a 171 can couple to a failed 377 and the other way around. If a 508 failed, that'd be it

Perhaps to a point, but then again a 377 might have difficulty rescuing a 171 anyway if it failed at Rye for example On a serious note, would it be relatively easy to change the couplers on the units ? - I’ve heard of this sort of thing being done to loco’s but not on units before.

 

[MCR247]

Perhaps to a point, but then again a 377 might have difficulty rescuing a 171 anyway if it failed at Rye for example On a serious note, would it be relatively easy to change the couplers on the units ? - I’ve heard of this sort of thing being done to loco’s but not on units before.

Not sure, because for example, the dellners on 57s are like 4inches to high to couple to a 377..

 

[Dreadnought]

There are 6 or more perfectly fine and useable SET 508s - if SN had 4, with 2 in service and 2 spare, if one broke down - send a spare to recover it!

Nice idea in theory but who pays for the additional lease costs and all the start up costs (driver, guard and maintenance staff training + spares for maintenance) that would be required?

 

[mbonwick]

On a serious note, would it be relatively easy to change the couplers on the units ? - I’ve heard of this sort of thing being done to loco’s but not on units before.

Can't be that hard, Southern did it to a fair few of their 171s, turning them from 170s..

 

[MCR247]

Can't be that hard, Southern did it to a fair few of their 171s, turning them from 170s..

Doesn't mean it would be that simple for an older unit. Bear in mind that 170s & 377s are both Bombardier and built at around the same time...

 

[Fincra5]

Can't be that hard, Southern did it to a fair few of their 171s, turning them from 170s..

Yes they did. The 313s could possibly be changed to Dellners as their current couplers are also fully automatic.

 

[O L Leigh]

It's not as simple as that. It depends on the train wires and lots of other issues besides.

The issue over couplers isn't necessarily as complicated as it seems. A train doesn't have to be compatible with the entire fleet but it does help if it can be coupled to the one behind (or in front) if it fails. This is why using Cl313's isn't so daft, because they will be limited on the routes they work and they won't be too far away from another Cl313 should they need a little help.

O L Leigh