ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

I don’t want to risk getting off topic but to answer your question it was put into service like that was probably due a shortage of available parts/parts under repair, the car was needed in service as I’m 90% sure we’d already withdrawn some from main service at that point (43206 and 43312 for the tour) and NL65 had already gone. The amount of parts Craigy would’ve had will likely have gone down as well as they were well into the process of being phased out.

43313 was also out by the time of that photo after its prang at Bounds Green.

 

[najaB]

For me personally it makes more sense to have 2 standard Coaches then the Buffet Car then another Standard Coach after then First class or after the buffet 2 first class instead of that.

Care to explain how to achieve either of those given that First Class is in the buffet car?

 

[Azzy49]

Care to explain how to achieve either of those given that First Class is in the buffet car?

I'm not so sure, was always a tbought to have Powercar then 3 Standard class then Buffet car after that then first class Carriage then Power car.

Good to know that HST was safe to be in service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will the 5 Carriage Scotrail set have the same Coach layout such as the Buffet Car being near a Powercar. For me personally it makes more sense to have 2 standard Coaches then the Buffet Car then another Standard Coach after then First class or after the buffet 2 first class instead of that.

You can put an HST in any formation you like (give or take the TGS?) but the traditional reason for having it that way round is that the buffet is a natural barrier between the two classes. Of course in this case the buffet is also a composite, but they could if they wanted have changed the seats.

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Care to explain how to achieve either of those given that First Class is in the buffet car?

An afternoon with a spanner moving the seats around?

 

[43096]

You can put an HST in any formation you like (give or take the TGS?) but the traditional reason for having it that way round is that the buffet is a natural barrier between the two classes. Of course in this case the buffet is also a composite, but they could if they wanted have changed the seats.

TGS in the middle of the set is a no, as the TGS van doors are not fitted with CDL; there are CDL control panels but the doors themselves do not have CDL fitted. That area is therefore strictly staff only.

It doesn't apply on ScotRail, as their sets don't have a TGS.

 

[philthetube]

You can put an HST in any formation you like (give or take the TGS?) but the traditional reason for having it that way round is that the buffet is a natural barrier between the two classes. Of course in this case the buffet is also a composite, but they could if they wanted have changed the seats.

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An afternoon with a spanner moving the seats around?

If you can do that in an afternoon I will give you a job.

 

[Neptune]

You can put an HST in any formation you like (give or take the TGS?) but the traditional reason for having it that way round is that the buffet is a natural barrier between the two classes. Of course in this case the buffet is also a composite, but they could if they wanted have changed the seats.

The buffet is in the first class coach. It isn’t a composite.

 

[scotraildriver]

I'm not so sure, was always a tbought to have Powercar then 3 Standard class then Buffet car after that then first class Carriage then Power car.

Good to know that HST was safe to be in service.

Scotrail don't have separate buffet and 1st class coaches. The buffet, guards office and 1st class is all in one vehicle.

 

[Azzy49]

Scotrail don't have separate buffet and 1st class coaches. The buffet, guards office and 1st class is all in one vehicle.
View attachment 87956

Oh you're right! Sorry that escaped my mind as was thinking about EMR HSTS as we were talking about that earlier. I knew that before.

 

[Scotrail88]

What is the speed / acceleration benefit of the HST v 170?
Will the yard be opening at the end Of this month to allow an increase in diagrams from that date?

 

[scotraildriver]

HSTs can pretty much match the 385's between Glasgow and Dunblane so will allow a speed up of the timings at some point. Easily line speed out of Queen St tunnel while the 170s wheeze about at 35mph. There will be about 15 HST diagrams daily when Cadder opens.

 

[Azzy49]

HSTs can pretty much match the 385's between Glasgow and Dunblane so will allow a speed up of the timings at some point. Easily line speed out of Queen St tunnel while the 170s wheeze about at 35mph. There will be about 15 HST diagrams daily when Cadder opens.

That's quite good for Hsts, 170's go at 70mph shortly after exiting the Dundee Tunnel en route for Aberdeen, the HST's are up to 100mph at the same point.

 

[Railperf]

HSTs can pretty much match the 385's between Glasgow and Dunblane so will allow a speed up of the timings at some point. Easily line speed out of Queen St tunnel while the 170s wheeze about at 35mph. There will be about 15 HST diagrams daily when Cadder opens.

Yes. the 2+4 HST's are pretty rapid to 100mph and match the 0-100mph times of 385's. The 385's are quicker off the mark due to HST's slower brake release - and HST full power tends to be applied around 15-20mph. So the HST 30-100mph time is a fair bit quicker than 385's.

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What is the speed / acceleration benefit of the HST v 170?
Will the yard be opening at the end Of this month to allow an increase in diagrams from that date?

On the Highland main line, HST's have an advantage reaching the line speed limits through faster acceleration . But 170's can run at Sprinter speed limits - usually 5 to 10mph faster than HST's so they reclaim the time lost on those sections. Also the 170's braking is far more responsive in application and release - which results in faster station approaches. I get the feeling that drivers are still gaining experience with HST brakes - so station approaches seem more cautious for the time being.

 

[najaB]

But 170's can run at Sprinter speed limits - usually 5 to 10mph faster than HST's so they reclaim the time lost on those sections.

It's likely that a many of those differential speeds can be applied to HSTs as well if there's the desire to do the paperwork.

 

[scotraildriver]

Yes. the 2+4 HST's are pretty rapid to 100mph and match the 0-100mph times of 385's. The 385's are quicker off the mark due to HST's slower brake release - and HST full power tends to be applied around 15-20mph. So the HST 30-100mph time is a fair bit quicker than 385's.

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On the Highland main line, HST's have an advantage reaching the line speed limits through faster acceleration . But 170's can run at Sprinter speed limits - usually 5 to 10mph faster than HST's so they reclaim the time lost on those sections. Also the 170's braking is far more responsive in application and release - which results in faster station approaches. I get the feeling that drivers are still gaining experience with HST brakes - so station approaches seem more cautious for the time being.

HSTs are permitted to use the higher speeds, the same as 170s.

 

[hexagon789]

HSTs are permitted to use the higher speeds, the same as 170s.

Didn't think HSTs were allowed to use SP speeds unless there's been an exception as there was for 170s?

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It's likely that a many of those differential speeds can be applied to HSTs as well if there's the desire to do the paperwork.

The 170s in Scotland gained a derogation to use SP speeds when they were introduced, I assume originally they weren't as a Sectional Appendix from a few years ago specifically notes SP applies to 170s in Scotland

 

[scotraildriver]

There must have been as we drive HSTs at the higher limits, Class 385s as well. If not everyone at my depot has been speeding!

 

[Railperf]

There must have been as we drive HSTs at the higher limits, Class 385s as well. If not everyone at my depot has been speeding!

lol. I hope not...but you are the driver...so your your word is final. I was last on the HML in mid August, and at that point HST's were observing the lower limits. I understand LNER wanted the SP limits to be available for Azuma's too, but have not heard anything about the higher speeds being granted yet.

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There must have been as we drive HSTs at the higher limits, Class 385s as well. If not everyone at my depot has been speeding!

what routes does your depot sign?

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HSTs are permitted to use the higher speeds, the same as 170s.

On which routes?

 

[hexagon789]

There must have been as we drive HSTs at the higher limits, Class 385s as well. If not everyone at my depot has been speeding!

I appreciate my last comment wasn't very clearly worded in relation to what I meant, but I was trying to say that if you as I driver say you can drive HSTs at SP speeds then I believe you. But that's definitely a change because when this project started there were posts on here making comment on whether there would be issues with the HSTs keeping time on the HML due to not be able to use SP differentials so it seems common sense has prevailed on that.

The public sectional appendix though still doesn't list SP speeds as applying to HSTs even short ones and there are no notes on the HML pages which mention that either so it's not very clear that the change has been made

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On which routes?

I think SP differentials are only on the HML, the Glasgow-Aberdeen/Edinburgh-Aberdeen and Glasgow-Edinburgh are all HST or MU differentials which HSTs can use anyway.

 

[Railperf]

I appreciate my last comment wasn't very clearly worded in relation to what I meant, but I was trying to say that if you as I driver say you can drive HSTs at SP speeds then I believe you. But that's definitely a change because when this project started there were posts on here making comment on whether there would be issues with the HSTs keeping time on the HML due to not be able to use SP differentials so it seems common sense has prevailed on that.

The public sectional appendix though still doesn't list SP speeds as applying to HSTs even short ones and there are no notes on the HML pages which mention that either so it's not very clear that the change has been made

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I think SP differentials are only on the HML, the Glasgow-Aberdeen/Edinburgh-Aberdeen and Glasgow-Edinburgh are all HST or MU differentials which HSTs can use anyway.

Exactly. I just checked the December 2020 sectional appendix which does not yet include Class 253/254 as being permitted to run at SP differential limits. And yes the SP limits apply mainly to the HML as far as current operation is concerned. Otherwise HST's are permitted to run to higher HST and DMU/MU differential speeds.
If there has been a change to SP differential speeds to include HST and Class 800's i'd be keen to see where.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2021 ==

I appreciate my last comment wasn't very clearly worded in relation to what I meant, but I was trying to say that if you as I driver say you can drive HSTs at SP speeds then I believe you. But that's definitely a change because when this project started there were posts on here making comment on whether there would be issues with the HSTs keeping time on the HML due to not be able to use SP differentials so it seems common sense has prevailed on that.

The public sectional appendix though still doesn't list SP speeds as applying to HSTs even short ones and there are no notes on the HML pages which mention that either so it's not very clear that the change has been made

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2021 ==


I think SP differentials are only on the HML, the Glasgow-Aberdeen/Edinburgh-Aberdeen and Glasgow-Edinburgh are all HST or MU differentials which HSTs can use anyway.

There's 3/4 mile of 80/90SP differential on the E&G which also applies to 380/385.

 

[mcmad]

No change I'm aware of and I'd expect it to come across my desk at some point. Unlikely to be as simple a sign off as hoped as the HST's are really hammering the track at HST speeds.

The speed on the E&G (and a DMU one at Carmuirs) were specifically updated through the WON to include electric stock.

 

[John Bishop]

HSTs cannot use the SP speeds on the HML. Only 158/170s that use them.

 

[hexagon789]

Exactly. I just checked the December 2020 sectional appendix which does not yet include Class 253/254 as being permitted to run at SP differential limits. And yes the SP limits apply mainly to the HML as far as current operation is concerned. Otherwise HST's are permitted to run to higher HST and DMU/MU differential speeds.
If there has been a change to SP differential speeds to include HST and Class 800's i'd be keen to see where.

I've heard before that they can be quite slow to update the public SA copies

There's 3/4 mile of 80/90SP differential on the E&G which also applies to 380/385.

I'm almost completely certain that used to be MU, rather than SP

HSTs cannot use the SP speeds on the HML. Only 158/170s that use them.

Well that's what I thought but why would a driver state that they are driving HSTs to SP speeds on the HML if they weren't either doing so in practice or indeed permitted to do so?

 

[John Bishop]

I've heard before that they can be quite slow to update the public SA copies



I'm almost completely certain that used to be MU, rather than SP


Well that's what I thought but why would a driver state that they are driving HSTs to SP speeds on the HML if they weren't either doing so in practice or indeed permitted to do so?

I’m really not sure.

I drive HSTs on the HML, and can assure you that using the SP speeds for HSTs is not permitted.

I think that the MU and SP speeds are getting muddled as you’ve alluded to.

 

[Railperf]

I’m really not sure.

I drive HSTs on the HML, and can assure you that using the SP speeds for HSTs is not permitted.

I think that the MU and SP speeds are getting muddled as you’ve alluded to.

I take it you sign both 170's and HST's then on the HML. What do you like/dislike about each train. Frtom a performance point of view there seems to be pros and cons to both - which seem to equal out their overall performance along the line.
Seems to me a decent bi-mode along the lines of a Class 755/4 may have been a better idea than the HST's. I bet the powerpacks cost less to maintain and use less fuel than two great powercars!

 

[Journeyman]

I take it you sign both 170's and HST's then on the HML. What do you like/dislike about each train. Frtom a performance point of view there seems to be pros and cons to both - which seem to equal out their overall performance along the line.
Seems to me a decent bi-mode along the lines of a Class 755/4 may have been a better idea than the HST's. I bet the powerpacks cost less to maintain and use less fuel than two great powercars!

Just about anything would have been a better idea than the HSTs!

 

[Clansman]

Just about anything would have been a better idea than the HSTs!

...in hindsight!

 

[hexagon789]

I’m really not sure.

I drive HSTs on the HML, and can assure you that using the SP speeds for HSTs is not permitted.

I think that the MU and SP speeds are getting muddled as you’ve alluded to.

Fair enough didn't realise you were also a driver, apologies. I hope you can understand the confusion though - given another member who has said they drive HSTs on the HML said they were driving at the SP speeds.

 

[Journeyman]

...in hindsight!

Plenty of people thought they were a bad idea from the beginning.

 

[najaB]

Plenty of people thought they were a bad idea from the beginning.

I dare say there were fish who thought that crawling out of the swamp and living on the land was a bad idea too.