ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Journeyman]

I dare say there were fish who thought that crawling out of the swamp and living on the land was a bad idea too.

Hey, I was just saying. It's not compulsory to buy into the worship of HSTs!

 

[najaB]

Hey, I was just saying. It's not compulsory to buy into the worship of HSTs!

Oh, I don't worship them either. Judy Just pointing out that some people object to anything, even without a good reason.

 

[Journeyman]

Oh, I don't worship them either. Judy pointing out that some people object to anything, even without a good reason.

Fair enough. I object to the HSTs being uneconomical, unreliable and unsuitable for the job in this case. I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise so far.

 

[Railperf]

Fair enough didn't realise you were also a driver, apologies. I hope you can understand the confusion though - given another member who has said they drive HSTs on the HML said they were driving at the SP speeds.

Well the driver said he drove HST's at the higher speeds - which is okay when it comes to HST and MU differentials. He didn't specifically say he drove HST's at SP speeds or on the HML.

 

[Goldromans]

I’ve gone back and forth over the last couple of years as to wetherI think the HSTs were the right choice, and I’ve settled on that they were. They’ve massively improved the standard of long distance travel on the InterCity routes (improved first class, buffet etc) from the 170s, and customers will expect this new standard as a minimum on whatever replaces them after the decarbonisation project.

 

[najaB]

I’ve gone back and forth over the last couple of years as to wetherI think the HSTs were the right choice, and I’ve settled on that they were. They’ve massively improved the standard of long distance travel on the InterCity routes (improved first class, buffet etc) from the 170s, and customers will expect this new standard as a minimum on whatever replaces them after the decarbonisation project.

At risk of re-opening the debate, the issue that Scotrail faced was that had they bought new-build it would have been a 30-ish year commitment, but not enough of the network is electrified for bi-modes to make sense at the moment. By the time the HSTs are life-expired (max 10 years from now), a lot more wires will be either already up or in the process of being installed so bi-modes would fit perfectly.

 

[47271]

Just on the use of Cadder Yard for stabling, and the number of HSTs Scotrail wil be able to run after the end of this month when it comes into use.

Noone's too bothered at the moment because of drastically reduced levels of travel, but had Covid not happened, would we still have been waiting for this facility to open before all available sets could've been put into service? If so, that's a fairly disastrous bit of project management isn't it?

I realise it's an academic question now, but worth considering when so many other things have gone wrong with the introduction of these trains.

 

[92002]

Just on the use of Cadder Yard for stabling, and the number of HSTs Scotrail wil be able to run after the end of this month when it comes into use.

Noone's too bothered at the moment because of drastically reduced levels of travel, but had Covid not happened, would we still have been waiting for this facility to open before all available sets could've been put into service? If so, that's a fairly disastrous bit of project management isn't it?

I realise it's an academic question now, but worth considering when so many other things have gone wrong with the introduction of these trains.

The real academic answer is at the moment there are not enough staff who are passed to use Hsts.

Physical distancing does not allow more than one in a cab. So training is currently on hold. However not enough people are currently travelling and only around 12 sets are in use.

So the current problem is where to park the sets in a secure area till training can start again.

 

[Azzy49]

The real academic answer is at the moment there are not enough staff who are passed to use Hsts.

Physical distancing does not allow more than one in a cab. So training is currently on hold. However not enough people are currently travelling and only around 12 sets are in use.

So the current problem is where to park the sets in a secure area till training can start again.

I've seen some HST's parked at Dundee Yard, that was Prior to them entering Service. If they had to park some HST's at Dundee Yard how many do you HST's do you reckon they can take?

 

[92002]

I've seen some HST's parked at Dundee Yard, that was Prior to them entering Service. If they had to park some HST's at Dundee Yard how many do you HST's do you reckon they can take?

The spare sets are parked all around Scotland. The ones at Dundee have not been modified and should eventually be scrapped. Scotrail own these ones and the modified ones are leased. 78 8

 

[najaB]

If they had to park some HST's at Dundee Yard how many do you HST's do you reckon they can take?

If memory serves correctly there are a total of five roads available, at least two of which should fit two complete sets. So there should be room for at least seven sets.

 

[Azzy49]

If memory serves correctly there are a total of five roads available, at least two of which should fit two complete sets. So there should be room for at least seven sets.

That's not bad then, at most I've seen two.

 

[47271]

The real academic answer is at the moment there are not enough staff who are passed to use Hsts.

Physical distancing does not allow more than one in a cab. So training is currently on hold. However not enough people are currently travelling and only around 12 sets are in use.

So the current problem is where to park the sets in a secure area till training can start again.

Useful to know. Do you mean that Cadder wouldn't be required if there were enough crews already trained, and that the site will become redundant once they are?

 

[najaB]

Do you mean that Cadder wouldn't be required if there were enough crews already trained, and that the site will become redundant once they are?

No. There wouldn't have been enough overnight parking space even without Covid.

 

[47271]

No. There wouldn't have been enough overnight parking space even without Covid.

Ok, so the time taken to locate and prepare Cadder is a project failure in its own right?

 

[najaB]

Ok, so the time taken to locate and prepare Cadder is a project failure in its own right?

Seeing as the last set hasn't been delivered yet it's not a separate failure. I believe (but do not know) that the decision to upgrade Cadders was as a result of the overall delays meaning that it was available.

 

[hexagon789]

Well the driver said he drove HST's at the higher speeds - which is okay when it comes to HST and MU differentials. He didn't specifically say he drove HST's at SP speeds or on the HML.

For some reason I thought he had, my mistake

 

[PG]

Ok, so the time taken to locate and prepare Cadder is a project failure in its own right?

Putting Cadder to one side - do we still have the situation, due to lack of provision of shore supplies, of one power car being left idling e.g. at Inverness to avoid a cold restart?

 

[Devon Sunset]

Seeing as the last set hasn't been delivered yet it's not a separate failure. I believe (but do not know) that the decision to upgrade Cadders was as a result of the overall delays meaning that it was available.

As far as I understand it a new depot was to be constructed in the Perth area for HST servicing but for whatever reason this fell through. Because of this Cadder was identified as a replacement. It is required for stabling purposes especially with the introduction of 5 coach sets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2021 ==

Putting Cadder to one side - do we still have the situation, due to lack of provision of shore supplies, of one power car being left idling e.g. at Inverness to avoid a cold restart?

I would imagine it is still happening at various locations, it definitely is at Haymarket. Very popular with the locals

 

[BRX]

I think we should be admiring the HSTs for providing an improvement in service *in spite* of the hopeless project management at every turn.

 

[najaB]

As far as I understand it a new depot was to be constructed in the Perth area for HST servicing but for whatever reason this fell through. Because of this Cadder was identified as a replacement. It is required for stabling purposes especially with the introduction of 5 coach sets.

Ah, right. Thanks. I remembered that there was supposed to be stabling somewhere else but for some reason drew a blank on Perth. I don't know this for fact, but I suspect that the delivery delays meant that Cadder became available for the stabling site, which would then make the future Perth remodelling easier and less disruptive.

 

[InOban]

Cadder may also be more convenient for crew? How many are based at Perth?

 

[Azzy49]

Cadder may also be more convenient for crew? How many are based at Perth?

That's true so basically Crew could maybe switch around Cadder and Perth if need be assuming.

 

[Railperf]

I think we should be admiring the HSTs for providing an improvement in service *in spite* of the hopeless project management at every turn.

I sampled both HST's and 170's on the HML and Glasgow - Aberdeen - and I would say the HST's are far better comfort and performance wise. Despite being over 40 years old - they look far better than the 170's too.

 

[Devon Sunset]

Perth is quite a large traincrew depot from memory. I have no knowledge of Cadder being a traincrew depot so presumably it will involve taxis from Queen St.

 

[najaB]

I have no knowledge of Cadder being a traincrew depot so presumably it will involve taxis from Queen St.

Would that be faster/easier/more likely than train to Lenzie and taxi from there?

 

[Devon Sunset]

I would say so, shows as 6.8ml and around 14 minutes by road to Queen St.

 

[InOban]

I was more thinking that they would be likely to live in the area. A bit awkward as well as pointless to trek into Queen Street and back out to Cadder. Surely in 2021 crew can sign on online?

 

[InvHst]

Useful to know. Do you mean that Cadder wouldn't be required if there were enough crews already trained, and that the site will become redundant once they are?

Absolutely not true yes their is a crew issue regarding hst sets however carder once operational actually strategically is a better choice for storage and usage when operational will see an increase in diagrams from 12 to 15

 

[najaB]

Surely in 2021 crew can sign on online?

No doubt app-based sign-in is technically a non-issue but with a centralised logon point managers have the opportunity to see the drivers before they start work (intoxication) and also they can be sure that the driver has seen the WON/any briefings.