Rank a TOC's rolling stock from best to worst

[Energy]

Purely from a drivers point of view for TfW and only the stock I sign.

158
153
150
175

the 175 will drop down a place when the 230’s come into service.

What is so bad about the 175s?

 

[py_megapixel]

Purely from a drivers point of view for TfW and only the stock I sign.

158
153
150
175

the 175 will drop down a place when the 230’s come into service.

Is the 175 down low because of software faults? There's a lot of complaint about Alstom software on this forum...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the 175 down low because of software faults? There's a lot of complaint about Alstom software on this forum...

Must admit I was surprised to see a driver rating gangwayed over non-gangwayed, so the reason must be strong.

 

[Peter0124]

Northern:
319
195
158
156
150
142

Avanti:
390
221

Greater Anglia:
317
321
379

TfL Rail:
315
345

Based only on the units I have been on so far

 

[Energy]

Northern:
319
195
158
156
150
142

Suprised you rate the 319 so high but the 150 so low

 

[Bletchleyite]

Suprised you rate the 319 so high but the 150 so low

Despite being the same body, an EMU provides so much more of a pleasant environment, with far less noise and vibration, plus you can't send a 2-car out on its own!

 

[Energy]

Despite being the same body, an EMU provides so much more of a pleasant environment, with far less noise and vibration, plus you can't send a 2-car out on its own!

to be fair it is the only EMU on the poster's list

 

[Mikey C]

Don't understand the hatred I've seen so far of the 455/456 on SWR. I think they have to be one of the best refurbs of an existing stock I've ever seen, sensible well-designed layout for metro stock with the longitudinal seating sections. Makes them feel much newer than they are.

Compared to Southern 455s, or getting stuck with modern stock not designed for Metro (eg 377), I'd definitely take the SWR 455/456.

I quite like the Southern 455 interiors as well. In both cases the interiors are miles better than the original BR ones

As I said in an earlier post, there's an inherent bias in this thread towards long distance stock ahead of metro stock, but they have different roles

 

[sw1ller]

Problems with a 175... first of all, them being non gangwayed you’d think you’d get a better view. You don’t though because of the very large central pillar that blocks all of the 2nd window (unless you lean right round it, but you don’t do that normally)

then there’s the HVAC! (Heating, ventilation, air con). It basically does it’s own thing. You get to say what you’d like it to do and it’ll have a think about it, then do the complete opposite, so you try and do the opposite of what you want to trick it, and it’ll work correctly. So then you go into the maintenance screen and put on a heating test and it’ll warm up the other cab! So then you turn it off because you’re frozen and it’ll have another think about that and eventually turn off about 3 minutes later!! I HATE IT!! Then there the power brake handle. Firstly it’s surrounded by metal so freezes one side of your hand if you hold it for too long. Then there’s the fact it’s about as responsive as a dead cat! Power up and it’ll have another think about it and power up after 5 seconds....... maybe. Sometimes it just powers up the cars it wants to, why would I want full power anyway eh! Oh, and the brake hold button works about 90% of the time. Which sounds reliable until it decides it doesn’t want to when you’re on a hill!! The DSD (the peddle on the floor for driver vigilance) is too wide. So to sit normally in the seat means both feet need to be on it, which isn’t how I use it, I have to sit at an angle so only one foot is on it. If I use two feet I have to jump on it weirdly every 60 seconds! It’s not normal.

there are other things that annoy me too but you get the jist. Like the TMS (train management screen) placed at 90° so it’s hard to read and use, oh, and it dims when you need it to be bright too so you can barely see what you’re doing.

I could go on. Needless to say, I can’t wait to get rid of them. I also don’t like the 15025* and 15028* either as my legs are too long, that’s why I put the 153’s above the 150’s.

 

[Energy]

Problems with a 175... first of all, them being non gangwayed you’d think you’d get a better view. You don’t though because of the very large central pillar that blocks all of the 2nd window (unless you lean right round it, but you don’t do that normally)

then there’s the HVAC! (Heating, ventilation, air con). It basically does it’s own thing. You get to say what you’d like it to do and it’ll have a think about it, then do the complete opposite, so you try and do the opposite of what you want to trick it, and it’ll work correctly. So then you go into the maintenance screen and put on a heating test and it’ll warm up the other cab! So then you turn it off because you’re frozen and it’ll have another think about that and eventually turn off about 3 minutes later!! I HATE IT!! Then there the power brake handle. Firstly it’s surrounded by metal so freezes one side of your hand if you hold it for too long. Then there’s the fact it’s about as responsive as a dead cat! Power up and it’ll have another think about it and power up after 5 seconds....... maybe. Sometimes it just powers up the cars it wants to, why would I want full power anyway eh! Oh, and the brake hold button works about 90% of the time. Which sounds reliable until it decides it doesn’t want to when you’re on a hill!! The DSD (the peddle on the floor for driver vigilance) is too wide. So to sit normally in the seat means both feet need to be on it, which isn’t how I use it, I have to sit at an angle so only one foot is on it. If I use two feet I have to jump on it weirdly every 60 seconds! It’s not normal.

there are other things that annoy me too but you get the jist. Like the TMS (train management screen) placed at 90° so it’s hard to read and use, oh, and it dims when you need it to be bright too so you can barely see what you’re doing.

I could go on. Needless to say, I can’t wait to get rid of them. I also don’t like the 15025* and 15028* either as my legs are too long, that’s why I put the 153’s above the 150’s.

Sounds like early 2000s Alstom quality

 

[hexagon789]

ScotRail

HST
170
158
156
385
334
380/320/318 (on par)

 

[fgwrich]

There's something I really like about the SWR 455/456s, I've never been quite able to put my finger on it. I wouldn't want to travel to Weymouth in one over a 444, but they just have a real charm to them.
They're not something I grew up with, I don't think I've travelled more than a dozen times on them.
Something about them feels very real and raw, you can feel the train doing all the work... it's hard to articulate. Nothing fancy going on, just outer suburban trains doing what they were designed to do, and doing it well.
Their seating layout is great for the routes they work also, I wish we would see similar layouts on metro trains instead of 3+2.

Of all the Suburban BR Mk3 EMU's, I would have to put both the SWR 455s & the "Renatus" 321s at the top. Both are excellent high quality refurbishments which show what can be done to the Mk3 body shell. And, at least SWT Managed to solve the slightly irritating issue of the doors not opening fully. Southern placed grab handles in their doorway.

 

[AverageTD]

TfL Rail
345 - I prefer them to the 700s. Much nicer colour scheme inside and the (small number of) transverse seats are quite comfortable
315

London Overground
710 - a real leap forward over the 378s, which feel a bit compromised
378

London Underground
S8 - the S stock is a cracking train, a shame a derivative of the basic design hasn't been used more widely on local services elsewhere
S7 - ditto
1995 - a really good design and reliable too, why couldn't Alstom/Washwood Heath get their Junipers right?
2009 - if I was standing, I'd rank these above the 95s, as the headroom by the doors is brilliant! The seats are rubbish though
1996 - the perch seats are annoying, why not tip up seats like the 95s? Too much grey inside also
1973 - a clever refurbishment
1972 - enjoyable as a heritage ride...
1992 - awful seating, a greenhouse in summer on the surface sections

Interesting list.

I'd switch the 315s and 345s around because I find the ride comfort horrendous above about 50mph and not to mention they like to break down an awful lot. I'd switch the 378s and 710s around too, mainly because the interior design means you can't walk a yard without smashing your head against a grab handle. Also the 378s ride is generally better.

As for tube stock, I'd send the 96s straight to the top because I don't see anything really wrong with them (I like the interior refurb!). Although I like the S Stock as a customer, they're apparently wearing out quickly which is a shame. If the 92 stock isn't at the bottom of anybody's list then I think they need to see a doctor.

For my own local (SWR), the list is as follows.

444 (post SWR refurb could put it below the Sprinters)
159
158
450 (personal favourites but not a fan of the seating)
707
458 (Very comfortable but SWR treat them terribly)
455
456

The top 5 I'd say are all very solid trains and I don't have an issue with the bottom 3 as well, they're just not the S tier the others at that. It'll be interesting to see what the 701s bring to the table but given my existing dislike of both SWR's interiors and Aventras, my standards are low.

 

[CJ]

Northern

- 323
- 158
- 170
- 195/331
- 156
- 155/153/150
- 319

Haven't travelled on a 333 yet, I would put these somewhere between 323 and 170.

TPE

- 802
- 397
- 185

Haven't travelled on Mk5A's yet, but I would put this on par with 397.

Avanti

- 390
- 221

XC

- HST
- 221/220

TfW

- 175
- 158
- 150

EMR

- HST
- 158
- 156/153

Haven't travelled on the 222s yet, but would put on par with HST.

LNWR/WMT

- 350 (/3 and /4)
- 350 (/1)
- 323
- 350 (/2)
- 172/170

GWR

- HST (pre-Castle sets)
- 150

Haven't travelled on GWR 800/802s yet but would put on par with HST.
Haven't travelled on post-Castle sets yet but would also put on par with HST.
Finally, haven't travelled on GWR 158s yet but would put above 150s.

 

[greatvoyager]

CrossCountry
220/221
HST
170

Avanti West Coast
221
390

East Midlands Railway
222
HST
158
170
156

Great Western Railway
HST/Castle
158
165/166
387
800/802
150
143

If I’ve not mentioned a type of train it’s because I’ve not been on it.

 

[Chris217]

Transport for Wales

Loco hauled trains.
67+mk3s and 37+mk2s.
Preferred for the traditional train of travel.
Pacers.-Always been a fan.
158s if I have to get on a sprinter type.
But thats my limit of the good.

I detest 153s and 150s
And 175s have never appealed to me as they have always been packed when I travelled on them..

Would like to trial a ride on a 231 and a 769 if they ever make a full days service lol.

Thy will be done!

 

[Tempest3K]

CrossCountry
220/221
HST

Assuming you aren't going on interior or noise ground here......

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE in my view:

Mk5a First Class (really special)
185 double set (best seats and window alignment in Standard, 1st also good, Grammer seating)
802 and 397 on a par; 802 has the build quality, 397 has the window alignment and slightly nicer interior
Mk5a Standard (really poor - bad seats, bad alignment)
185 single set (no point worrying about whether it has Grammer or Fainsa seating if you've got no chance of getting one)

Avanti:

390 coach A seat 45, or First Class
221 double set
390 other seats
221 single set

 

[greatvoyager]

Assuming you aren't going on interior or noise ground here......

Actually I don’t mind the interior or ground noise at all, as I’ve grown up with it. (My username is a literal one in terms of how I see them, and I know I’m very much in a minority in that regard)
The 22x family is a favourite of mine, and it was only just above the HST for that reason.

 

[185143]

GWR
802
800
158
Castle HST
166
143
165
150
57+Seated Sleeper Mk3

I haven't tried the sleeper berths yet, though the 2 nights in the seats I had were not something I ever want to repeat.

SR
Inverness 158
156
385
HST
Haymarket 158
320
318
170
334

SWR
444
159
158
707
450
456
455
458

Northern
158
156
323
333
331
195/1
153
155
170
319
150
195/0

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 22x family is a favourite of mine, and it was only just above the HST for that reason.

The main issues with 22x (apart from a few technical issues and the space-inefficient layout) relate pretty much entirely to the CrossCountry TOC and how it deploys and maintains them.

On Avanti, unless I get coach A seat 45 or am in 1st, I prefer a double Voyager over a Pendolino - big windows and a shorter walk to the buffet (as there's one in each half). The Avanti sets have mostly been looked after properly, unlike the XC ones, and usually run in pairs which gives quite a long train.

So I'd rate an Avanti 221 quite highly, but an XC 22x very low.

 

[Class465pacer]

465/9, 466
465/0/1
395
376
375/377

I’m a fan of all of them to be honest

 

[Parallel]

SWR
159/158 - Comfortable seats, the SWT livered ones are/were my favourite of the class as they were bright and well kept. The SWR refurbishment has made them feel a bit dull.
444 - Not bad for longer distance journeys, fairly comfortable seats well spaced out, good ambience within the carriages due to the doors being at the ends.
455 - SWT's have been refubished well and are a lot nicer than Southern's examples.
456 - Similar to the 455s internally but with fewer carriages.
442 - Not used any since SWR have taken them on but I have used them a couple of times when they operated Gatwick Express services.
458 - Not bad, I've travelled on these from Reading several times and they are perfectly adequate for the journeys they do.
--
707 - Not bad but one of the less comfortable SWR units due to ironing board seats. The PIS also uses a terrible text-to-speech voice.
--
450 - The class 150 of the SWR EMU fleet. I guess they're not that bad, just underwhelming in almost every way.

 

[spotify95]

My local is EMR and I only use their Intercity services (so can't comment on the regional stock). But from what I have been on:
1. HST - comfortable enough and the interiors are decent, despite the age of the trains
2. 222 - albeit the newer trains, the interior looks more worn, and don't get me started on the windows screening out RF signals

Out of the 222s, the 5 car are the best, the 7 car are in the middle (because the 7 car has very limited advantages over a 5 car, due to the amount of 1st class), and the 4 car is by far the worst. 4 car trains on an hourly intercity service is a recipe for overcrowding.

Can't wait for the 360s and the 810s to come into service in the future. My guesses are that a refurbished 360 (using 2+2 seating) would be between a HST and a 222. Don't know about the 810s but they've got to do better than the 222s...

 

[TXMISTA]

SWR:
158/159
444
442
450
707
458
456
455

GWR:
158
57 + MK3s
Castle Class
IET
150
387
166
165
143

 

[357 LTSRail]

Greater Anglia

755 - think these are superb, really hard to fault them. Reliability gremlins were obviously a shame, but as with any new family of trains I'll give them time to bed in. Massive upgrade on previous trains and have made a mockery of other new rolling stock (particularly DMUs) with their accessibility, comfort and accessibility. They've raised the bar in terms of new rolling stock.
745 - almost as impressive as the 755, another good selection by Greater Anglia. As with most new stock though, not quite satisfied with the seating for longer journeys.
379 - comfortable seating (by modern standards anyways), good air conditioning and ride quality and plenty of space. Decent acceleration, well lit interior and connecting corridors between units too. One of the best Electrostars Bombardier made in my opinion (2nd or 3rd).
360 - Good, solid units. Acceleration is excellent so delays are readily recovered from, interiors are pretty much as good as a 3+2 seating layout can get. Not the most interesting of units, but they do their job well. Also reasonably reliable, if feeling a bit dated now (a refurb is overdue).
720 - the 3+2 seating feels really cramped in these (more so than many other units to be honest) and doesn't really fit the many Aventra principles such as walkthrough coaches. Acceleration, door opening times and seating capacity is excellent, but very little standing standing room. Passenger Information Systems and WiFi are good, but announcements annoying. Seating is acceptably comfortable, tables for airline style seats and leg room too (for the majority of seats, anyways). Interior feels of decent enough quality, but cheap in some areas.
321 - Similar gripes as the 317, but a slightly nicer travelling experience in general. The Renatus units are nice but I find the seating quite uncomfortable and the lighting a bit too bright and white.
317 - feeling very dated now. Strongly dislike the seating (I think the 317/5s have the type I mean) and find them very noisy, particularly in the motor coach. PIS is quite unhelpful, acceleration not fantastic and quite jerky and a lack of air conditioning is often really felt in the summer too.

London Overground

710 - very good at what they do. Acceleration, air conditioning, standing room and door size are all excellent for high passenger volumes. Good WiFi and USB charging points are a nice provision too. Not particularly comfortable seating, but these are not used on long journeys and the great ride quality and sound proofing help make up for this somewhat. I find the onboard announcements quite annoying, but it's not the end of the world.
315 - old faithful units, hard to fault these other than their age. Still accelerate pretty well, nicer seating than what is replacing them (albeit less room in peak time crushes pre-COVID) and reasonably reliable to boot.
378 - never really liked these. Interiors leave something to be desired, sliding doors are fast but make the interior noisier, unexceptional acceleration and air conditioning. Also really never liked the PIS screens.

TFL Rail

315 - see London Overground.
345 - similar to 720s minus USB charging (and in my opinion a nicer livery), but the length of journeys passengers are expected to travel on these units for is unacceptable. Nowhere for suitcases despite taking on Heathow services, seating that is arguably worse than S Stock LUL trains in terms of comfort (and what feels like fewer transverse seats than the S8s) despite longer journeys. Onboard screens feel poorly utilised.

c2c

357/0 & 357/2 - the perfect units for the job, but they need an overhaul (interior and mechanical/electrical). Air conditioning is still amongst the best in the country and ride quality is generally very good with good sound deadening. Many units have developed an extremely loud and unpleasant buzzing sound however (auxiliary converter module problem?), which never seems to get fixed along with broken doors between coaches. Passenger capacity is good, the 3+2 seating layout is acceptable in my opinion with good seat padding (lack of armrests justified, less so tables for airline seats), with some tables at seats of 4 welcome (although the 357/2s have unacceptably small tables). Acceleration is still plenty good enough, as is reliability on the whole with good passenger information systems and fast opening and closing doors. Interiors are feeling quite dated and are starting to disintegrate on some of the harder worked units.

357/3 - the "metro" conversion of 357/2s to form 357/3s has been a major failure though - reduced seating capacity has given way to standing room that offers very little to grab onto, often for "long distance" journeys (the LTS being on of the few routes that 3+2 seating makes sense on in my opinion). The grab handles they've fitted are also awfully rattly, particularly over rough track.

387 - decent trains, but are clearly not built for the route and are not really permanent solution. They are often downgrade on 357s on most diagrams due to lower capacity, slower boarding times and slower acceleration (they are too higher geared for this route). They are nice off peak for their tables, 2+2 seating layout with plenty of seats for 4 next to each other but in reality these are only used in the peak, and that is where they often struggle. Post COVID passenger numbers reduces this, but those "ironing board" seats and extremely bright lighting takeaway from what are otherwise very nice, comfortable interiors. Luggage racks waste large amounts of valuable space whilst PIS screens scroll too slowly for the number of stops these units often call at. Despite all this, I can well imagine passengers missing them when they are replaced by 720 units.

 

[43055]

My local is EMR and I only use their Intercity services (so can't comment on the regional stock). But from what I have been on:
1. HST - comfortable enough and the interiors are decent, despite the age of the trains
2. 222 - albeit the newer trains, the interior looks more worn, and don't get me started on the windows screening out RF signals

Out of the 222s, the 5 car are the best, the 7 car are in the middle (because the 7 car has very limited advantages over a 5 car, due to the amount of 1st class), and the 4 car is by far the worst. 4 car trains on an hourly intercity service is a recipe for overcrowding.

Can't wait for the 360s and the 810s to come into service in the future. My guesses are that a refurbished 360 (using 2+2 seating) would be between a HST and a 222. Don't know about the 810s but they've got to do better than the 222s...

On a 7 car you can fill first class both weekday and weekend but it probably depends on if there is a breakfast service on.

Here is my EMR list:
HST - Not been on the LNER sets but the ex EMT sets were very nice.
222 - Nice units just needs some seat covers replacing.
158 - Decent units. Plenty of room between the seats and they don't feel as claustrophobic as other trains with the same seats (GWR HST's)
153 - Cracking little units. Got me to work and back many times and was always warm in the winter.
156 - I would say they were on par with the 153's but the ex GA 156's bring it down as they don't look that well looked after internally. Even some bay's of 4 don't have tables which I find a bit strange.

and XC:
HST - Can't fault them
220/221 - I do like them but I think it is time they needed a good refresh like with Virgin/Avanti 221's
170 - Somehow everyone else want's to use the same service as me when I get a 170 to Burton from Birmingham. Probably also could go with a bit of a refresh on the seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HST - Not been on the LNER sets but the ex EMT sets were very nice.

The ex-LNER ones are very, very nice, better seats than IC70s for a start. (I think the seats are the same as the XC ones).

 

[43096]

The ex-LNER ones are very, very nice, better seats than IC70s for a start. (I think the seats are the same as the XC ones).

No, they're inferior to the ex-EMT sets. Seats are worse*, and they have the horrible leather in first that you just slide around on.

Just as valid a view as yours!

* the seats are perfectly good, far better than Pendolino or IEP. Just not as good as an IC70.

 

[fgwrich]

The ex-LNER ones are very, very nice, better seats than IC70s for a start. (I think the seats are the same as the XC ones).

They are indeed the same in both classes (XC & EC) - seats by Primarius.

Have to admit I’m a little surprised by the EMR 158s feeling less claustrophobic than the FGW HSTs - at least the MK3s had a few tables to break up the monotony.