In your opinion - which TOC has been the most experimental and why?

[ALEMASTER]

I'd say going back to the early days of privatisation Midland Mainline are up there for innovation and experimentation

- HST refurbishment to a good standard including digital audio PA system
- added class 170s alongside the fleet of HSTs with a recast of the timetable giving intermediate stations a more frequent service and longer distance journeys a faster service
- Introduction of class 222s to replace the 170s and supplement the HSTs with some specifications to the Cross Country Voyager intentially different based on experience (including smaller details like the internal passenger information and reservation displays)
- rebranding the buffet as mm's bar with a much improved food range (this even extended to MML running the coffee shop at Chesterfield station under this brand!)
- free tea and coffee for all passengers
- Premier service ticket in first class available for every weekday train which included car parking and on board meal in the price.
- Inclusive day out packages to Alton Towers and historic halls that included train travel, coach transfer and admission
- London Day Out ticket at weekends offering train travel, London Travelcard and London attraction discount vouchers at a reasonable price, mandatory reservation on the outward journey but open same day return, choice of Standard Class, First Class or First class with breakfast.
- 4-Sight advance ticket offering travel for up to 4 passengers for about the price of a tank of petrol
- Door to Door deal which was a 4-Sight ticket with the addition of taxi travel to the station of origin
- New routes to London from Barnsley, Matlock and Burton on Trent
- Weekend service to York and Scarborough
- Online seat sales with bargains to be had
- Call centre based in Sheffield
- Flagship business train "The Master Cutler" non stop Chesterfield to London with dedicated "Pullman formation" HST.
- Staff "briefers network" system ensuring all customer facing staff had up to date knowledge regarding ticketing, service development etc
- Customer Service Academy for staff training at Derby
- Annual family and friends fun day for staff (in the latter years this was generally an all inclusive day out to Alton Towers)

 

[py_megapixel]

Although you do hear them referred to as Thamess**t and Shambleslink.

You can't really guard against just swapping one part of the brand for another unrelated word, though.

FCC was unique in lending themselves to such a perfect play-on-words

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although you do hear them referred to as Thamess**t and Shambleslink.

"Thamestink" is the one I've heard most often. But you'll get a silly nickname for most commuter transport companies, and historically have done, simply because people don't like commuting, so even a perfect service will have plenty of haters simply because they don't want to be there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2020 ==

You can't really guard against just swapping one part of the brand for another unrelated word, though.

FCC was unique in lending themselves to such a perfect play-on-words

That and that they gave up one of the strongest brands on the railway just so they could stick the F-in-circle all over it, as they are wont to do.

 

[alistairlees]

WAGN also introduced the ludicrously successful Cambridge cruiser non-stop King's Cross service. Plus the 4tph Stansted Express services comes from their era too.

Can you remember when? I could have sworn they were introduced before I left in January 1996.

 

[Llandudno]

I'd say going back to the early days of privatisation Midland Mainline are up there for innovation and experimentation

- HST refurbishment to a good standard including digital audio PA system
- added class 170s alongside the fleet of HSTs with a recast of the timetable giving intermediate stations a more frequent service and longer distance journeys a faster service
- Introduction of class 222s to replace the 170s and supplement the HSTs with some specifications to the Cross Country Voyager intentially different based on experience (including smaller details like the internal passenger information and reservation displays)
- rebranding the buffet as mm's bar with a much improved food range (this even extended to MML running the coffee shop at Chesterfield station under this brand!)
- free tea and coffee for all passengers
- Premier service ticket in first class available for every weekday train which included car parking and on board meal in the price.
- Inclusive day out packages to Alton Towers and historic halls that included train travel, coach transfer and admission
- London Day Out ticket at weekends offering train travel, London Travelcard and London attraction discount vouchers at a reasonable price, mandatory reservation on the outward journey but open same day return, choice of Standard Class, First Class or First class with breakfast.
- 4-Sight advance ticket offering travel for up to 4 passengers for about the price of a tank of petrol
- Door to Door deal which was a 4-Sight ticket with the addition of taxi travel to the station of origin
- New routes to London from Barnsley, Matlock and Burton on Trent
- Weekend service to York and Scarborough
- Online seat sales with bargains to be had
- Call centre based in Sheffield
- Flagship business train "The Master Cutler" non stop Chesterfield to London with dedicated "Pullman formation" HST.
- Staff "briefers network" system ensuring all customer facing staff had up to date knowledge regarding ticketing, service development etc
- Customer Service Academy for staff training at Derby
- Annual family and friends fun day for staff (in the latter years this was generally an all inclusive day out to Alton Towers)

Indeed, some great innovations on MML, not many of them remain now sadly!

I find it surprising that better marketing attempts weren’t made at promoting Chatsworth and Alton Towers with dedicated bus links from Chesterfield and Derby, as surely these helped fill contra peak flow trains. Although they did seem very expensive days out for families.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'd say going back to the early days of privatisation Midland Mainline are up there for innovation and experimentation

- HST refurbishment to a good standard including digital audio PA system
- added class 170s alongside the fleet of HSTs with a recast of the timetable giving intermediate stations a more frequent service and longer distance journeys a faster service
- Introduction of class 222s to replace the 170s and supplement the HSTs with some specifications to the Cross Country Voyager intentially different based on experience (including smaller details like the internal passenger information and reservation displays)
- rebranding the buffet as mm's bar with a much improved food range (this even extended to MML running the coffee shop at Chesterfield station under this brand!)
- free tea and coffee for all passengers
- Premier service ticket in first class available for every weekday train which included car parking and on board meal in the price.
- Inclusive day out packages to Alton Towers and historic halls that included train travel, coach transfer and admission
- London Day Out ticket at weekends offering train travel, London Travelcard and London attraction discount vouchers at a reasonable price, mandatory reservation on the outward journey but open same day return, choice of Standard Class, First Class or First class with breakfast.
- 4-Sight advance ticket offering travel for up to 4 passengers for about the price of a tank of petrol
- Door to Door deal which was a 4-Sight ticket with the addition of taxi travel to the station of origin
- New routes to London from Barnsley, Matlock and Burton on Trent
- Weekend service to York and Scarborough
- Online seat sales with bargains to be had
- Call centre based in Sheffield
- Flagship business train "The Master Cutler" non stop Chesterfield to London with dedicated "Pullman formation" HST.
- Staff "briefers network" system ensuring all customer facing staff had up to date knowledge regarding ticketing, service development etc
- Customer Service Academy for staff training at Derby
- Annual family and friends fun day for staff (in the latter years this was generally an all inclusive day out to Alton Towers)

What exactly did MML refurbish on the HSTs? It all looks original to me except the lights.
Nowhere near as good as FGW and GNERs refurbishment, who replaced the seats, luggage racks and new toilets.

 

[Jamesrob637]

What exactly did MML refurbish on the HSTs? It all looks original to me except the lights.
Nowhere near as good as FGW and GNERs refurbishment, who replaced the seats, luggage racks and new toilets.

That's the beauty of it - preserving the old interior but with new upholstery. EMR's HSTs have the nicest interior particularly the declassified first class carriage. I felt claustrophobic on a Great Western Railway HST when they were done in the late-00s - fortunately I fled the South West not long after but now it's equally claustrophobic 800s down there.

 

[py_megapixel]

That's the beauty of it - preserving the old interior but with new upholstery. EMR's HSTs have the nicest interior particularly the declassified first class carriage. I felt claustrophobic on a Great Western Railway HST when they were done in the late-00s - fortunately I fled the South West not long after but now it's equally claustrophobic 800s down there.

A lot of people don't like the seats FGW chose for the HSTs, but personally I think that the seats that had been fitted since the BR days weren't all that comfortable at all.

IMO what actually made the HSTs feel unpleasant when FGW did them was the obsession with painting everything one of their garish brand colours. I don't remember exactly which awful hue was selected for the interior walls of the HSTs but it made them feel quite grim and dingy, especially at night.

 

[ALEMASTER]

What exactly did MML refurbish on the HSTs? It all looks original to me except the lights.
Nowhere near as good as FGW and GNERs refurbishment, who replaced the seats, luggage racks and new toilets.

brand new toilets, baby changing facilities, luggage racks added in the centre of coaches, PA system upgraded to a new digital system, other than that a general refresh and updated colour scheme I think. I also recall that whilst the classic Intercity seats were retained, the tables were altered to make them easier to get in/out of. You can find the staff briefing video on Youtube

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2020 ==

Indeed, some great innovations on MML, not many of them remain now sadly!

I find it surprising that better marketing attempts weren’t made at promoting Chatsworth and Alton Towers with dedicated bus links from Chesterfield and Derby, as surely these helped fill contra peak flow trains. Although they did seem very expensive days out for families.

The market for Chatsworth was more the older folk so it was more about comfort and style. Most booked the first class with breakfast option and if I remember correctly it was a vintage coach that took them from Chesterfield station, they did the tour of Chatsworth House and gardens and got a guide book then the coach took them to the farm shop on the way back to the station.

The Alton Towers package worked out that the travel was actually really cheap, park tickets are fairly expensive. As far as I know it was promoted in London (posters on tube escalators, leaflets at stations etc) and the excursion was fairly popular. The set up did require quite active management - HQ staff had to check how many were reserved the day before and let the coach company know how many coaches were needed and revenue protection staff had to work the coach doors on the day checking tickets and swapping the outward travel ticket for a park entry ticket!

---------------------------
The staff briefing video from the launch of the revised business travel tickets and on board service is also on Youtube!

 

[Ianno87]

The Alton Towers package worked out that the travel was actually really cheap, park tickets are fairly expensive. As far as I know it was promoted in London (posters on tube escalators, leaflets at stations etc) and the excursion was fairly popular. The set up did require quite active management - HQ staff had to check how many were reserved the day before and let the coach company know how many coaches were needed and revenue protection staff had to work the coach doors on the day checking tickets and swapping the outward travel ticket for a park entry ticket!

Virgin West Coast did the same for Alton Towers (connecting via Stoke-on-Trent), with fares from Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Milton Keynes, Watford and Euston. I recall at the time they were surprisingly good value once the cost of park tickets in themselves was considered.

 

[Llandudno]

brand new toilets, baby changing facilities, luggage racks added in the centre of coaches, PA system upgraded to a new digital system, other than that a general refresh and updated colour scheme I think. You can find the staff briefing video on Youtube

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2020 ==


The market for Chatsworth was more the older folk so it was more about comfort and style. Most booked the first class with breakfast option and if I remember correctly it was a vintage coach that took them from Chesterfield station, they did the tour of Chatsworth House and gardens and got a guide book then the coach took them to the farm shop on the way back to the station.

The Alton Towers package worked out that the travel was actually really cheap, park tickets are fairly expensive. As far as I know it was promoted in London (posters on tube escalators, leaflets at stations etc) and the excursion was fairly popular. The set up did require quite active management - HQ staff had to check how many were reserved the day before and let the coach company know how many coaches were needed and revenue protection staff had to work the coach doors on the day checking tickets and swapping the outward travel ticket for a park entry ticket!

---------------------------
The staff briefing video from the launch of the revised business travel tickets and on board service is also on Youtube!

The problem with Alton Towers does anyone actually pay the ‘on the gate’ price there are so many discounts, vouchers, 2 for 1 deals on the back of cereal boxes etc!

It’s a bit like trying to work out what the proper price of a sofa is at DFS!

 

[backontrack]

First North Western ran a Rochdale-Euston service using Sprinters.

Therefore, they automatically win.

 

[gingerheid]

First North Western ran a Rochdale-Euston service using Sprinters.

Therefore, they automatically win.

Seems fair. Crosslink was weird, but not that weird.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First North Western ran a Rochdale-Euston service using Sprinters.

Therefore, they automatically win.

These made very little sense (I can barely imagine a bigger waste of paths on the WCML than a 2-car 90mph DMU), but they did (and I used them a few times, Railcard return to London £13.20 walk-up!) have a nice feel of the plucky little Northern DMU against the "big trains". You could almost have drawn a smiley face on the front.

 

[Recessio]

See also: Worst Crapital Disconnect.

"First Crapital C*ckup" was what me and my father always used to call them. Shambolic service every single day. Knackered old rolling stock they never replaced, invisible staff, dreadful timekeeping, dreadful stations, rubbish names (why ditch the 'Thameslink' name?) and colour scheme.

They could be considered experimental in being the TOC that experimented with "how far away can our timetable be from reality".

Conversely, post the 2018 timetable meltdown, I have thought TSGN have been really experimental at taking an incredibly complex, busy route network, moderninising the rolling stock and stations and timetables. Even if Thameslink programme was nearly 20 years late.

 

[AverageTD]

"First Crapital C*ckup" was what me and my father always used to call them. Shambolic service every single day. Knackered old rolling stock they never replaced, invisible staff, dreadful timekeeping, dreadful stations, rubbish names (why ditch the 'Thameslink' name?) and colour scheme.

They could be considered experimental in being the TOC that experimented with "how far away can our timetable be from reality".

Conversely, post the 2018 timetable meltdown, I have thought TSGN have been really experimental at taking an incredibly complex, busy route network, moderninising the rolling stock and stations and timetables. Even if Thameslink programme was nearly 20 years late.

South Western Failway is my current go to for when the Worst group mess up. Definitely agree with Thameslink though, from essentially scraps the programme has increased the network massively and created what's now a large fleet of high capacity, reliable and pleasant trains. Southern and GN are basically taking 2nd place on their own mainlines!

 

[dk1]

Virgin West Coast did the same for Alton Towers (connecting via Stoke-on-Trent), with fares from Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Milton Keynes, Watford and Euston. I recall at the time they were surprisingly good value once the cost of park tickets in themselves was considered.

That was excellent. I shew the bus driver my staff boxes to see if they where valid & he just said "take a seat & wait for me when we get there". On arrival he took us to the group bookings area where we got reduced price entry to the theme park. He advised us he was working the 17:30 return shuttle so catch that for a free ride back to Stoke. No wonder it didn't last long haha.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2020 ==

First North Western ran a Rochdale-Euston service using Sprinters.

Therefore, they automatically win.

Was using 158s from a few locations & 322s from Manchester Airport. Very infrequent though.

 

[Jamesrob637]

That was excellent. I shew the bus driver my staff boxes to see if they where valid & he just said "take a seat & wait for me when we get there". On arrival he took us to the group bookings area where we got reduced price entry to the theme park. He advised us he was working the 17:30 return shuttle so catch that for a free ride back to Stoke. No wonder it didn't last long haha.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2020 ==


Was using 158s from a few locations & 322s from Manchester Airport. Very infrequent though.

God a 322 from Manchester all the way to London - then again 321s did Birmingham to London. Would only use if it were mega cheap!

 

[dk1]

God a 322 from Manchester all the way to London - then again 321s did Birmingham to London. Would only use if it were mega cheap!

Tell me about it. Was hideous & doomed to fail.

 

[Ianno87]

God a 322 from Manchester all the way to London - then again 321s did Birmingham to London. Would only use if it were mega cheap!

Walk up return of ~£20 (£25 for most connecting stations) - 1998 prices obviously.

I did it Manchester Airport-Euston in August 1998. There were 4 southbound departures; something like 0619, 1019, 1419 and 1819, journey time well over 3 hours, including extended stop at Tamworth for pathing on the old Trent Valley 2 track, then a slow soujourn along the Slow Lines south of Rugby. But we did get a free copy of the Telegraph....

 

[Jamesrob637]

Walk up return of ~£20 (£25 for most connecting stations) - 1998 prices obviously.

I did it Manchester Airport-Euston in August 1998. There were 4 southbound departures; something like 0619, 1019, 1419 and 1819, journey time well over 3 hours, including extended stop at Tamworth for pathing on the old Trent Valley 2 track, then a slow soujourn along the Slow Lines south of Rugby. But we did get a free copy of the Telegraph....

August too! Worst month for (lack of) air-conditioning and we had proper summers back then too! (Although a few recent summers haven't been too bad!)

Still nearly 20 more than I'd pay though saying that I'm always happy to sit on a 323 Manchester to Crewe or Stoke when combined with a LNR ticket down to the capital. 319s are grating me a bit now though.

 

[Ianno87]

Can you remember when? I could have sworn they were introduced before I left in January 1996.

According to this source (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1996/jun/10/heron-line - Dated June 1996) they existed by then, although the wording implies they were a relatively recent innovation at that point; so perhaps they were indeed a very late BR 'Shadow TOC' innovation.

That article also refers to the Liverpool Street-Cambridge line as the "Heron Line" which I've never heard before in my life.

 

[43096]

South Western Failway is my current go to for when the Worst group mess up.

I go for S*** WorstGroup Railway for the shower currently running the South Western franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

God a 322 from Manchester all the way to London

Did it once and I found it fairly pleasant. It was a bit "one man, dog and bicycle", though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2020 ==

Walk up return of ~£20 (£25 for most connecting stations) - 1998 prices obviously.

Whatever the full rate was, the Railcard discount was definitely to a piffling (even then) £13.20.

 

[ALEMASTER]

I've just remembered the Calais bus link that Connex South Eastern ran for a bit. You could buy a reasonably priced day return from London to Calais which included train travel to Ashford and coach connection via Eurotunnel to a choice of the Cite Europe mall or town centre and staff privilege passes got the normal 75% discount! I got the impression the majority of the customers were railway staff on the equivalent of a booze cruise. It didn't last long but great idea.

 

[tbtc]

"First Crapital C*ckup" was what me and my father always used to call them. Shambolic service every single day. Knackered old rolling stock they never replaced, invisible staff, dreadful timekeeping, dreadful stations, rubbish names (why ditch the 'Thameslink' name?) and colour scheme

The franchise wasn't just the (old) Thameslink though - it included the "GN" bits of "WAGN", so "Thameslink" wouldn't have worked as a name for the franchise (given that none of the Great Northern services ran "south of the river" in those days).

So First were in a situation where they were running a franchise that there was no one simple name for - what name would cover both the Moorgate 313s and the Bedford - Brighton services? Whilst "First Capital Connect" is pretty vague, the franchise map meant it'd probably be a vague name.

People seem a lot more upset with the "First Capital Connect" name than they were with "Silverlink" etc - possibly because Thameslink was a known brand before - but it was the Government who merged Thameslink and Great Northern, not First (but, as ever, easier to blame private TOCs!)

 

[ALEMASTER]

Walk up return of ~£20 (£25 for most connecting stations) - 1998 prices obviously.

I did it Manchester Airport-Euston in August 1998. There were 4 southbound departures; something like 0619, 1019, 1419 and 1819, journey time well over 3 hours, including extended stop at Tamworth for pathing on the old Trent Valley 2 track, then a slow soujourn along the Slow Lines south of Rugby. But we did get a free copy of the Telegraph....

I did that run too, the unit seemed comfy enough and had a catering trolley on board, was quite a pleasant journey. It was a limited stop express but the stops were quite random (a result of moderation of competition rules in favour of Virgin West Coast) for example it non-stopped through Crewe. I think it called at a small station nearby instead but cannot remember, I do recall the Blackpool-Euston non stopped through Preston then called at Euxton.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2020 ==

The franchise wasn't just the (old) Thameslink though - it included the "GN" bits of "WAGN", so "Thameslink" wouldn't have worked as a name for the franchise (given that none of the Great Northern services ran "south of the river" in those days).

So First were in a situation where they were running a franchise that there was no one simple name for - what name would cover both the Moorgate 313s and the Bedford - Brighton services? Whilst "First Capital Connect" is pretty vague, the franchise map meant it'd probably be a vague name.

People seem a lot more upset with the "First Capital Connect" name than they were with "Silverlink" etc - possibly because Thameslink was a known brand before - but it was the Government who merged Thameslink and Great Northern, not First (but, as ever, easier to blame private TOCs!)

Did First Capital Connect still refer to it as the Thameslink route though, I can't remember now!

 

[py_megapixel]

The franchise wasn't just the (old) Thameslink though - it included the "GN" bits of "WAGN", so "Thameslink" wouldn't have worked as a name for the franchise (given that none of the Great Northern services ran "south of the river" in those days).

So First were in a situation where they were running a franchise that there was no one simple name for - what name would cover both the Moorgate 313s and the Bedford - Brighton services? Whilst "First Capital Connect" is pretty vague, the franchise map meant it'd probably be a vague name.

People seem a lot more upset with the "First Capital Connect" name than they were with "Silverlink" etc - possibly because Thameslink was a known brand before - but it was the Government who merged Thameslink and Great Northern, not First (but, as ever, easier to blame private TOCs!)

But why does the whole thing have to be branded uniformly?
If they really wanted to plaster their group naming over everything, the liveries could have had been something like:

Thameslink
operated by First (f)

Great Northern
operated by First (f)

 

[Ianno87]

I did that run too, the unit seemed comfy enough and had a catering trolley on board, was quite a pleasant journey. It was a limited stop express but the stops were quite random (a result of moderation of competition rules in favour of Virgin West Coast) for example it non-stopped through Crewe. I think it called at a small station nearby instead but cannot remember, I do recall the Blackpool-Euston non stopped through Preston then called at Euxton.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2020 ==

Manchester Airport services called at the eclectic mix of Alderley Edge, Sandbach, Tamworth and Watford....

Blackpool services were (I think) Poulton-le-Fylde, Kirkham, Leyland, Euxton Balshaw Lane, Warrington BQ (non-passenger stop to attach to the Rochdale portion) then Tamworth, Watford.

Rochdale services called at (I think) Manchester Victoria, Newton-le-Willows then Warrington BQ to attach to the Blackpool portion.

 

[DH1Commuter]

I agree with Alemaster on MML - they genuinely tried to grow the market for rail and, I believe, had some success. I was really disappointed when they lost out at renewal time.