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Could TPE ditch the Mk5 sets?

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daodao

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Pre-virus, did you travel by train on any of the routes you mention? I didn’t see many empty trains on any of them and particularly not between Leeds and York...

Thank you for confirming that you want to replace a service train with an empty stock working over a notoriously busy stretch of track.
With my suggestions, there would still be 4 tph Leeds-York (2 non-stop, 1 semi-fast and 1 stopping) - that should be adequate. I only suggested sending the train to Neville Hill to overlay if it couldn't be left in a platform at Leeds for 20-30 minutes.

I have travelled on the York-Leeds-Manchester route on many occasions since the 1960s, albeit not since 2015. The main capacity issues appear to be between Leeds and Huddersfield where there are significant commuter flows.
 
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Bald Rick

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Airport travel is no longer a necessity

Err, it is for those using the plane. There is, obviously, a temporary reduction in demand, but it will be back. And as there aren’t many plane commuters, air travel will be back stronger, and more quickly, than rail travel. It is also a lucrative market for rail, in terms of income per passenger / passenger km.

So, arguably, we should be prioritising airport services over the rest, no?
 

sjpowermac

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With my suggestions, there would still be 4 tph Leeds-York (2 non-stop, 1 semi-fast and 1 stopping) - that should be adequate. I only suggested sending the train to Neville Hill to overlay if it couldn't be left in a platform at Leeds for 20-30 minutes.

I have travelled on the York-Leeds-Manchester route on many occasions since the 1960s, albeit not since 2015. The main capacity issues appear to be between Leeds and Huddersfield where there are significant commuter flows.
I think you’ve missed out on the fact that York to Leeds is (was? might be again?) a major commuter flow.

A further problem with your desire to make travel more difficult for people in the north is that pre-virus the good citizens of Newcastle, Durham, Darlington and York enjoyed direct trains to both the south west and south coast. Under your proposal that would no longer be the case and a change at either Leeds or Doncaster would become necessary for some of those routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Err, it is for those using the plane. There is, obviously, a temporary reduction in demand, but it will be back. And as there aren’t many plane commuters, air travel will be back stronger, and more quickly, than rail travel. It is also a lucrative market for rail, in terms of income per passenger / passenger km.

So, arguably, we should be prioritising airport services over the rest, no?
No, on the basis of a few months of below par performance figures for some loco hauled stock, we should make travel between northern cities more difficult.
 

bramling

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For the 99.9% of the travelling public that aren't enthusiasts, effective noise insulation is seen as a good thing.

I’m not entirely convinced about that. Once a train becomes too quite, noises from other passengers become much more conspicuous, which seems to annoy people far more IME.
 

daodao

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I think you’ve missed out on the fact that York to Leeds is a major commuter flow.

A further problem with your desire to make travel more difficult for people in the north is that pre-virus the good citizens of Newcastle, Durham, Darlington and York enjoyed direct trains to both the south west and south coast. Under your proposal that would no longer be the case and a change at either Leeds or Doncaster would become necessary for some of those routes.
Run an extra train York-Leeds at peak times only if there is particular commuter demand.

Since closure of the GC-GW link via Woodford Halse and the GC main line, it has been significantly quicker and more direct to travel from the NE and Yorkshire (Sheffield excluded) to Reading and the South Coast via London. The XC services via Sheffield should just run to Bristol and beyond (2 tph), but I won't comment further as this is off-topic.
 
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sjpowermac

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Run an extra train York-Leeds at peak times only if there is particular commuter demand.

Since closure of the GC-GW link via Woodford Halse and the GC main line, it has been significantly quicker and more direct to travel from the NE and Yorkshire (Sheffield excluded) to Reading and the South Coast via London.
Once again, you seem to presume lots of extra platform space at Leeds/York that simply doesn’t exist.

Ah, so rather than changing at Doncaster or Leeds you now wish people to change at King’s Cross and Paddington.
 

Bletchleyite

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Northern Connect should run 2 tph Liverpool-M/c Victoria-Huddersfield-York, with alternate trains calling at all stations to Newcastle or all stations to Middlesbrough, operated by bi-mode multiple units with at least 5 coaches. TPE's 19 five-car Class 802 sets should be sufficient for these services.

Why should Northern operate such a thing? Is this the obsession with competition (which is dying or dead in the "new world") again?
 

daodao

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Why should Northern operate such a thing? Is this the obsession with competition (which is dying or dead in the "new world") again?
There is no need for the artificially created TPE franchise. It should be broken up, with:
  • The Manchester-Cleethorpes service transferred to EMR (standard class only)
  • There should be an hourly WCML service from M/c (Victoria) to Scotland (alternately Edinburgh/Glasgow)
  • The Standedge services should be operated by Northern (standard class only)
 
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xotGD

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Unreliable "proper trains" (one heck of an assertion incidentally) or reliable units. Most passengers, as opposed to enthusiasts, will take the latter every time.
Most passengers will take whatever train turns up. However I'm sure many appreciated being able to get a seat on a 5 coach train rather than being squeezed into the doorway on a 3 car DMU.

Pardon me for sounding like a rail enthusiast on a rail forum. I thought that was why we came here.
 

DB

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Most passengers will take whatever train turns up. However I'm sure many appreciated being able to get a seat on a 5 coach train rather than being squeezed into the doorway on a 3 car DMU.

Pardon me for sounding like a rail enthusiast on a rail forum. I thought that was why we came here.

Having 5 carriages isn't a unique property of LHCS. We know that TPE had way less capacity than needed with just the 185s.
 

Bletchleyite

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There is no need for the artificially created TPE franchise. It should be broken up, with:
  • The Manchester-Cleethorpes service transferred to EMR (standard class only)
  • There should be an hourly WCML service from M/c (Victoria) to Scotland (alternately Edinburgh/Glasgow)
  • The Standedge services should be operated by Northern (standard class only]

Ah, I see. I do agree with the idea of merging the two franchises, but I certainly wouldn't use it as an excuse to downgrade TPE services; in my eyes the merged franchise would look something more like GWR with a backbone of quality long distance services connecting to branch lines.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Having 5 carriages isn't a unique property of LHCS. We know that TPE had way less capacity than needed with just the 185s.

Fundamentally the problem with the 185s is that only about half the number needed were built.
 

daodao

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Ah, I see. I do agree with the idea of merging the two franchises, but I certainly wouldn't use it as an excuse to downgrade TPE services; in my eyes the merged franchise would look something more like GWR with a backbone of quality long distance services connecting to branch lines.
I don't see the need for first class except on long-distance services to/from London, plus long-distance Anglo-Scotch services, and the XC long-distance services from Scotland/NE/Yorkshire to Bristol/SW England. At seat catering should be part of the first-class package on these routes.
 

Wolfie

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Most passengers will take whatever train turns up. However I'm sure many appreciated being able to get a seat on a 5 coach train rather than being squeezed into the doorway on a 3 car DMU.

Pardon me for sounding like a rail enthusiast on a rail forum. I thought that was why we came here.
Re your first para, if the Mk5s worked reliably we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Re your second para, l was trying to draw a distinction between those on here and the average customer.
 

Fokx

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Northern Connect should run 2 tph Liverpool-M/c Victoria-Huddersfield-York, with alternate trains calling at all stations to Newcastle or all stations to Middlesbrough, operated by bi-mode multiple units with at least 5 coaches. TPE's 19 five-car Class 802 sets should be sufficient for these services.

There should be 1 tph Blackpool-Bradford-York (calling at all stations between Leeds and York), and also (as Northern Connect) 1 tph (semi-fast) M/c Piccadilly-Leeds-York-Scarborough; the other 1 tph semi-fast M/c Piccadilly to Leeds should extend to Hull, as at present. Until more of these routes are wired, class 185 dmus should suffice.

With this pattern of services, could the Mk5 sets be ditched as surplus to requirements?

Only issue with that is Northern Connect no longer exists. It was a product of arriva not the current OLR company, the concept had died.

I’d also add in terms of passenger numbers the Liverpool to Newcastle service under the current TPE franchise is currently the busiest service, chopping and changing will cause more damage than good. Passengers were already annoyed with the addition of Lea Green or NLW stations between Liverpool and Manchester Victoria as ‘local’ passengers were taking seats off those making three hour journeys to the north, it also added 6 to 8 minutes on a busy commuter route and causes issues when a wheelchair bound passenger turns up to board only to find the wheelchair space is off the platform.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Airport travel is no longer a necessity, the drop off in the number of people using the train to catch the plane means cutting direct long distance services is justified.

My passenger numbers from said services respectfully disagree.

Most of the world is currently still open to tourism, and even those with restrictive measures require you to either isolate on arrival, take a covid test before your flight, or the UK’s approach of ‘please stay inside for two weeks’

Don’t forget that behind the Airport itself is one of the largest freight centres in the UK, with warehouses such as Amazon fulfilment and FedEx generating passenger traffic through employment, particularly as ordering online has become a ‘new way of life’ for many.
 
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sjpowermac

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Re your first para, if the Mk5s worked reliably we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Re your second para, l was trying to draw a distinction between those on here and the average customer.
Perhaps you could name any other new fleets that you know of where they are being introduced with only three daily diagrams? Maybe you could also let us know how those fleets are doing?

I note that in the months where the Nova 3 sets were out performing Nova 1 you were not calling for the Nova 1 sets to be taken off lease.
 

Philip

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Err, it is for those using the plane. There is, obviously, a temporary reduction in demand, but it will be back. And as there aren’t many plane commuters, air travel will be back stronger, and more quickly, than rail travel. It is also a lucrative market for rail, in terms of income per passenger / passenger km.

So, arguably, we should be prioritising airport services over the rest, no?

No, it is time TPE or DfT took a look at where its priorities lie and that is for providing good reliable transport links between the cities of Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield. It is not there to make things more convenient for passengers catching planes, even if this market picks up again. People who are flying have to cart luggage across the Airport, so an easy platform change at Manchester is a piece of cake in comparison. Avoiding running TPE services to the Airport means units and paths will be available for better use; running a Northern shuttle between Piccadilly platform 12 and the Airport will be more reliable and not interfere with other train movements anything like the current timetable does.

Four trains per hour between Manchester and York; two starting from Liverpool via Victoria; the other two Piccadilly via Guide Bridge. I haven't done the sums but I would think TPE could afford to hand back the LHCS and 15 Class 185s with this revised timetable.
 
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Purple Orange

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Nothing wrong with 2 TPE to the airport at all. It’s an important destination and arguably will be a stop on what will be a Edinburgh/
Newcastle to Birmingham service.
 

Bletchleyite

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Four trains per hour between Manchester and York; two starting from Liverpool via Victoria; the other two Piccadilly via Guide Bridge. I haven't done the sums but I would think TPE could afford to hand back the LHCS and 15 Class 185s with this revised timetable.

Would that allow the trains to be long enough, i.e. formed of either a Class 802 or two 185s? What about the local services TPE are presently operating? They could go back to Northern, but Northern would need more DMUs for those.

Personally, I don't have a great issue with that sort of pattern (indeed I think it's a good idea - TPE runs short trains too often, and I think the Styal Line would be better off with a 4 or 6tph Merseyrail style all stations operation from Piccadilly), however I do think at least one of them would need to extend to Newcastle. If that means keeping all the 185s, so be it; 158s have a few years left in them, and there are other options for Liv-Notts becoming available such as say 5-car 175 formations.
 

daodao

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No, it is time TPE or DfT took a look at where its priorities lie and that is for providing good reliable transport links between the northern cities of Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield. It is not there to make things more convenient for passengers catching planes, even if this market picks up again. People who are flying have to cart luggage across the Airport, so an easy platform change at Manchester is a piece of cake in comparison. Avoiding running TPE services to the Airport means units and paths will be available for better use; running a Northern shuttle between Piccadilly platform 12 and the Airport will be more reliable and not interfere with other train movements anything like the current timetable does.

Four trains per hour between Manchester and York; two starting from Liverpool via Victoria; the other two Piccadilly via Guide Bridge. I haven't done the sums but I would think TPE could afford to hand back the LHCS and 15 Class 185s with this revised timetable.
By and large, I agree, in particular that no TPE services should run to Ringway airport, but:
  • I would extend the Liverpool to York services alternately to Newcastle and Middlesbrough
  • I would run 1 of the Piccadilly-Leeds trains to Hull rather than York, and extend the other York train to Scarborough
  • I suspect that TPE would need to retain the class 185s for the Piccadilly services, as all the 19 class 802 bi-modes are likely to be needed for the Liverpool-York services.
 

Purple Orange

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By and large, I agree, in particular that no TPE services should run to Ringway airport, but:
  • I would extend the Liverpool to York services alternately to Newcastle and Middlesbrough
  • I would run 1 of the Piccadilly-Leeds trains to Hull rather than York, and extend the other York train to Scarborough
  • I suspect that TPE would need to retain the class 185s for the Piccadilly services, as all the 19 class 802 bi-modes are likely to be needed for the Liverpool-York services.

Why decrease frequency? What would go in its place?

I must say, your ideas of what constitutes an improved service really leaves me scratching my head.
 

Bletchleyite

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Why decrease frequency?

Because it's excessive and causes punctuality/reliability issues. A 4tph TPE operation using long trains is what it should be. If 5-car 80x are too short for that, order coaches to extend them.

What would go in its place?

Nothing. That's the point.

I must say, your ideas of what constitutes an improved service really leaves me scratching my head.

Short trains at excessive frequencies make a mess of the timetable. I think his proposal is too basic (the northern extensions are needed, though probably not Edinburgh which is a vanity project and should be binned) but a 4tph base with 2 from Picc and 2 from Liverpool via Vic, all operated using a minimum of 5 coach trains, and a separate EMU "Flughafen-S-Bahn" 4 or 6 times an hour from Picc (making much better use of Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley and Heald Green too), seems spot-on to me.

Conveniently there are 4 northern branches - so a perfect fit for 4tph - Newcastle, Middlesbrough/Redcar, Scarborough, Hull.

South TPE should get 1tph to Cleethorpes from Picc formed of 6-car 185 formations, ideally exactly half an hour opposite the Liverpool-Norwich or as close to it as possible.
 
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daodao

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Because it's excessive and causes punctuality/reliability issues. A 4tph TPE operation using long trains is what it should be. If 5-car 80x are too short for that, order coaches to extend them.

Nothing. That's the point.

Short trains at excessive frequencies make a mess of the timetable. I think his proposal is too basic (the northern extensions are needed, though probably not Edinburgh which is a vanity project and should be binned) but a 4tph base with 2 from Picc and 2 from Liverpool via Vic, all operated using a minimum of 5 coach trains, and a separate EMU "Flughafen-S-Bahn" 4 or 6 times an hour from Picc (making much better use of Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley and Heald Green too), seems spot-on to me.
I broadly agree. 6-coach trains would be better for the Liverpool services. The 185s will be needed for the Piccadilly services, as TPE only have 19 class 802 trainsets.
 

Philip

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If a Liverpool-York extended to Newcastle, then assuming 16 out of 19 802s in daily service, it would probably leave about 4 diagrams needing to be covered by double 185s - 6 coaches may be better on the busiest diagrams anyway. So TPE would probably need to keep about 40 185s for this.
 

tbtc

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It's too late to do anything about the Mk5s - the railway is stuck with these non-standard trains because First ordered them (and the small number of 397s) in a hurry instead of getting one fleet of Hitatchi trains to run all TPE services through Leeds and Preston (they aren't interested in the Cleethorpes line).

The fact that all three new fleets came into operation within a few weeks of each other means that the decision to order Mk5s looks poorer - it's not like they were ordering an "off the peg" train that would have been coming off the production line a couple of years before the "specialist" stock was built.

I was against the Mk5s at the time and I'm against them now - even if they had been built quickly and were reliable in service, it'd be a non-standard fleet.

But, we are stuck with them now. I can't see them getting scrapped any time (despite the way that enthusiasts like to talk about these things) - they may be better suited to a dedicated service though (e.g. a future Liverpool - Nottingham).

As for services in northern England... I keep saying this, but we have too many short trains cramming onto a limited amount of track - e.g. York was meant to have six or seven passenger trains on the line to Newcastle (depending on the First OAO) and seven passenger trains per hour on the line through Church Fenton to Leeds (i.e. ignoring the services via Harrogate). Both of which area recipe for unreliability on sections of two train railways with freight trains and flat junctions and no scope for overtaking at some intermediate stations (obviously the ECML has four tracks towards Northallerton, but there are also the Yarm services sharing those tracks).

The problem is the culture one everywhere having an hourly service to everywhere else. Fine for the people who do need a direct journey but how many people travel from Newcastle to Manchester Airport in a typical hour? A hundred? A dozen? Or are we basing the entire timetable (and the 15/45 minute splits in the two Newcastle - Manchester services) for the sake of a handful of passengers? Of course people prefer a through service, where possible, but people also kind of like a simple service, people also like a reliable service, and the messy combination of hourly routes makes that a lot harder to deliver on current infrastructure.

Fine if you want to build sufficient tracks/ platforms/ grade separation etc to make things work but we don't have that luxury at the moment - we have to work with what we have - cramming nine passenger trains per hour down the Burnage line to Manchester Airport (albeit providing a terrible service to suburban stations like Burnage, because most of these Airport services are non-stop beyond Piccadilly, for the sake of an average thirty-something departing passengers on every Airport service, seems to be asking for trouble. And one leaf on the line at Burnage will overspill into delays at Glasgow/ Edinburgh/ Newcastle/ Middlesbrough/ Cleethorpes/ Llandudno/ Liverpool/ Barrow etc.

Look at what works best elsewhere - look at how people who struggle to use "provincial" trains can work out how to use the London Underground after a few seconds of looking at a colourful diagram (the Underground isn't run on the basis of trying to provide an hourly Heathrow service to a dozen different termini - the Piccadilly line simply provides a frequent service on the route towards Cockfosters).

Stop running lots of short trains, focus on a simpler timetable that provides fewer/longer trains (which the infrastructure has a chance of coping with) - it's too late to do much about First's mistake in ordering three non-compatible fleets for their longer distance services but we can at least design a timetable around the infrastructure that we have, one that is simpler and therefore more reliable .
 

Energy

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they may be better suited to a dedicated service though (e.g. a future Liverpool - Nottingham).
If TPE get rid of them Chiltern may be interested to replace their old mk3s and satisfy Arriva's loco hauled obsession...
 

tbtc

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If TPE get rid of them Chiltern may be interested to replace their old mk3s and satisfy Arriva's loco hauled obsession...

That seems a sensible place for them - some of the 168s at Chiltern could easily be integrated into the similar 170s at Northern (or EMR/ XC etc) as payback. That removes some of the "non-standard" problems.
 

sjpowermac

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The number of diagrams doesn't really affect the MTIN figure.
But it definitely affects ironing out in service reliability. With more sets in traffic covering more miles, problems that occur relatively infrequently will show up that much sooner.
 

Wolfie

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That seems a sensible place for them - some of the 168s at Chiltern could easily be integrated into the similar 170s at Northern (or EMR/ XC etc) as payback. That removes some of the "non-standard" problems.
At face value that seeks logical. Implies that it will never happen, lol....
 

DB

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If TPE get rid of them Chiltern may be interested to replace their old mk3s and satisfy Arriva's loco hauled obsession...

I don't think Arriva has a loco-hauled obsession - they simply used those as they were available (Arriva decided that Wrexham & Shropshire wasn't viable). There were intended to be more sets, but as soon as the opportunity arose to snap up the 170s from Transpennine, Arriva did that instead.
 
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