Could TPE ditch the Mk5 sets?

[Killingworth]

Unless there's a dramatic early recovery in passenger numbers running many of the current 6 coach 185s will be an extravagance that can't and won't be justified. I say that as one who was calling for 3 cars to be beefed up to 6 only a year ago. Running them all but empty into a semi-deserted Airport may not be justified either.

A complete rethink of all deployments will have to be made by the Spring. It has already been noted that TPE have complicated their operations with so many train types for their relatively few services. Being diesel Nova 3 is possibly the logical class to run down?

 

[Energy]

I think there's a difference between slightly rough riding and a bit rattly and cheap (class 195/331 and 397) and plain not working reliably.

There is quite a big difference although Aventras haven't been doing too well for reliability yet...

The Fyra EMUs mentioned previously came from AnsaldoBreda as they provided the lowest price... remind you of a certain manufacturer of mk5s and other trains famed for being cheap...

 

[JonathanH]

Even if they are "sent back", they will be fixed and will see service again, I'd expect, even if that's not for TPE. They're too expensive to just scrap them. The ultimate "rubbish train", the NS Fyra EMUs (which were far more rubbish than the Mk5as will ever be), have entered service for FS now.

The 68+Mk5 stock are essentially not suitable for any UK rail service. They might be too expensive to scrap but I would imagine they are equally too expensive to operate.

I’ve just realised this is about the Nova 3s, which now completes the set of rumours: I’ve heard rumours over the past 6 months that each of the Nova 1, 2 and 3 sets were going to be ‘sent back’.

Why would there be any rumours about the Nova 1 units being 'sent back'. I can only think that would be to save costs.

It would seem feasible to eliminate both the Nova 2 and Nova 3 fleets by cutting back some of the services - lop off Newcastle to Edinburgh and remove the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service and there would be enough 802s to replace the 397s on the WCML. Run the Liverpool to Scarborough train in alternate hours to Redcar and Scarborough with a shuttle from York to each destination in the other hour and I think you could comfortably remove the 68+Mk5s with enough 185s to run pairs on the residual service. Run a Manchester Airport to Leeds service to maintain capacity over the Pennines and the Airport link.

Being diesel Nova 3 is possibly the logical class to run down?

Yes, it does seem so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Fyra EMUs mentioned previously came from AnsaldoBreda as they provided the lowest price... remind you of a certain manufacturer of mk5s and other trains famed for being cheap...

Though up until the Caledonian Sleeper order CAF didn't exactly have the same reputation as AnsaldoBreda for basically being incapable of building trains properly. That said, despite being often described as rubbish (I also recall "no two trams have the wiring the same"), the Metrolink T68s lasted a good while.

And to be fair despite Stadler having a very good reputation for Swiss quality, the UK FLIRTs didn't exactly have a smooth start.

 

[Energy]

Though up until the Caledonian Sleeper order CAF didn't exactly have the same reputation as AnsaldoBreda for basically being incapable of building trains properly.

CAF were pretty good, their previous UK train (class 332/333) is pretty good although Siemens did a lot of the work.

 

[JonathanH]

CAF were pretty good, their previous UK train (class 332/333) is pretty good although Siemens did a lot of the work.

Yes, and the Northern Ireland fleets appear to be fairly reliable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 68+Mk5 stock are essentially not suitable for any UK rail service. They might be too expensive to scrap but I would imagine they are equally too expensive to operate.

If they were reliable they would be perfectly suitable for anything that is presently being done with either short-set LHCS or short HSTs, because they are basically the same thing.

If TPE do "send them back", I would be unsurprised to see them showing up in Scotland once the issues have been properly fixed by CAF. Or possibly even Wales, where there has, for some reason, always been a tendency towards locomotive haulage. Or even Chiltern! Lots of places they could go.

If LHCS was that bad, TfW would be retaining 175s instead of getting Mk4s in.

It would seem feasible to eliminate both the Nova 1 and Nova 3 fleets by cutting back some of the services - lop off Newcastle to Edinburgh and remove the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service and there would be enough 802s to replace the 397s on the WCML.

I don't think there is any need to remove the 397s from the WCML - they're reliable enough now, aren't they? I don't entirely get why they had problems with them given that they are little more than a 331 with end doors and a pointy snout, and the 331s seem reliable even if they do ride like a cart.

 

[Energy]

I don't think there is any need to remove the 397s from the WCML - they're reliable enough now, aren't they? I don't entirely get why they had problems with them given that they are little more than a 331 with end doors and a pointy snout, and the 331s seem reliable even if they do ride like a cart.

Class 397s are fine now. Being an EMU with end doors there is comparatively little to go wrong as they are fairly simple, although there is even less to go wrong on a mk5 yet they are hopelessly unreliable.

 

[JonathanH]

If LHCS was that bad, TfW would be retaining 175s instead of getting Mk4s in.

TfW Mk4s are at best a vanity project. If they were under DfT control, I suspect that the plans would by now be changing in the light of the downturn in travelling.

 

[Bald Rick]

Completely unfounded and unsubstantiated rumours I heard were:

Nova 1 - Hitachi - difficult to cycle through maintenance, and not needing so many when if north of Newcastle abandoned. Send some / all to LNER so they don’t need to order any more.

Nova 2 - 397s - send back as unreliable (now much better of course).

Nova 3 - as per this thread.

 

[samuelmorris]

Though up until the Caledonian Sleeper order CAF didn't exactly have the same reputation as AnsaldoBreda for basically being incapable of building trains properly. That said, despite being often described as rubbish (I also recall "no two trams have the wiring the same"), the Metrolink T68s lasted a good while.

And to be fair despite Stadler having a very good reputation for Swiss quality, the UK FLIRTs didn't exactly have a smooth start.

22 years isn't exactly huge, the original Croydon trams are now that old and I don't think they're going anywhere. Likewise they may be a bit heavier but some of the DLR stock will soon be 30.

I'm not really convinced it's as simple as 'x manufacturer bad'. Different brands have better and worse products, again I raise Hitachi as an example, even Bombardier really, apart from some iffy door buttons, late 377s and 379s are very solid performers yet realistically, 3 years into operations all the Aventra fleets are still pretty hopeless so far. It's when manufacturers are out of their comfort zone that things go wrong, and the first time European manufacturers bring a product to the UK that seems to happen. The Desiro UK despite its good reputation had a rocky start, as did the first Electrostars, and as for Junipers, well... Stadler too found their first foray into UK rail quite challenging. Software and new-type design issues are resolvable. Genuine build quality issues less so.

There is also a distinct difference between cheap and nasty look and feel (e.g. broken buttons, rattly panels, defective onboard features), and actually problematic quality issues (e.g. running gear problems, structural defects). I've only really seen evidence of, as you say, AnsaldoBreda being in the latter category thus far.

 

[JonathanH]

Nova 1 - Hitachi - difficult to cycle through maintenance, and not needing so many when if north of Newcastle abandoned. Send some / all to LNER so they don’t need to order any more.

Yes, given in the full timetable, four of these are tied up north of Newcastle at any given time, and 2tph TPE from York to Newcastle probably isn't needed either, it would seem that seven of the class 802 units could be spared for LNER which may well be enough, with some service cuts, to see off the residual 91+Mk4 sets.

 

[Energy]

AnsaldoBreda being in the latter category thus far.

This is the AnsaldoBreda which gifted one of DSB's (Danish operator) undelivered trains to Libya. To go bellow AnsaldoBreda is very low, CAF aren't great but they haven't reached that low. I doubt TPE will get rid of the mk5s yet, if they are still this bad by the next franchise I could see them depart though.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Can I ask what exactly are the main problems with the mk5's?

 

[JonathanH]

Can I ask what exactly are the main problems with the mk5's?

Probably just that not enough staff are trained on them and so they haven't had the chance to become established. Staff training is, however, a major barrier to getting more of them working.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably just that not enough staff are trained on them.

That's one problem, but 3000 MTIN (miles per technical incident) is a bit rubbish. I'd be unhappy if I bought a car that was that bad, and trains are designed for much, much higher mileages than cars.

 

[JonathanH]

That's one problem, but 3000 MTIN (miles per technical incident) is a bit rubbish. I'd be unhappy if I bought a car that was that bad, and trains are designed for much, much higher mileages than cars.

Yes, but if they are just shuttling between York and Scarborough all day, 3000 miles takes quite a long time to accumulate. 3000 divided by 42 (distance between York and Scarborough) is 71 journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but if they are just shuttling between York and Scarborough all day, 3000 miles takes quite a long time to accumulate. 3000 divided by 42 (distance between York and Scarborough) is 71 journeys.

It doesn't matter how long it takes to get there, it's about how far they run before they conk out. 3000 MTIN means that they break to the extent that causes disruption to the service every 3000 miles. That's rubbish. It presently takes my car about 6 months or more to get to 3000 miles, but I would still find that unacceptable.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Probably just that not enough staff are trained on them and so they haven't had the chance to become established. Staff training is, however, a major barrier to getting more of them working.

What do staff have to set up in a carriage?

 

[LittleAH]

It is almost as if Transpennine, after winning the bid, realised how complicated all this would be.... delayed the introduction of Mk5As... then refused to accept all of them... and were hoping that the Department would pay for more Hitachis as part of a new and extended franchise?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2020 ==

Nope - it's almost as if CAF have delivered a poor product and they've kept failing their fault free running tests.

 

[Mikey C]

The advantage of ordering the 80x is that as the standard inter city bimode, it can easily be moved to another operator, whereas the 397 and Mk5 are far more unique and less useful elsewhere on the network.

 

[LittleAH]

Completely unfounded and unsubstantiated rumours I heard were:

Nova 1 - Hitachi - difficult to cycle through maintenance, and not needing so many when if north of Newcastle abandoned. Send some / all to LNER so they don’t need to order any more.

Nova 2 - 397s - send back as unreliable (now much better of course).

Nova 3 - as per this thread.

No Nova 1's will be leaving TPE, even if the consultation on the ECML means that services north of Newcastle are abandoned (never got going in the first place).

Yes, given in the full timetable, four of these are tied up north of Newcastle at any given time, and 2tph TPE from York to Newcastle probably isn't needed either, it would seem that seven of the class 802 units could be spared for LNER which may well be enough, with some service cuts, to see off the residual 91+Mk4 sets.

Not a cat in hells chance of 802's leaving and I doubt stakeholders in the NE would like losing the second service North of York. 185's would go first.

 

[37424]

Of course keeping the 15x185's and abandoning north of Newcastle would pretty much compensate for getting rid of the Mk5's with some of the Redcar diagram worked by 802's, but I doubt it will happen.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can I ask what exactly are the main problems with the mk5's?

They’re not modified HSTs...

 

[Fokx]

Nothing is being ‘sent back’

Where this wild rumour started is beyond me :eyeroll:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2020 ==

Probably just that not enough staff are trained on them and so they haven't had the chance to become established. Staff training is, however, a major barrier to getting more of them working.

Or more the fact they’re plagued with software problems where the locomotive suddenly stops communicating with the locomotive, power supply problems that mean the loco HAS to be kept running much to the disappointment of Scarborough residents, a PIS system that’s half-missing, TMS faults and at one point axel issues

 

[bussikuski179]

CAF were pretty good, their previous UK train (class 332/333) is pretty good although Siemens did a lot of the work.

CAF can do well, but usually they don’t. They built 20 new metros for Helsinki which are horrible, the doors slam enough to give the train a small shake, they bounce like Pacers, make a lot of questionable noises and are just generally bad. Then again the 332/333 are pretty good.

 

[BeHereNow]

Nope - it's almost as if CAF have delivered a poor product and they've kept failing their fault free running tests.

However, as you point out in point 1, Nova 3's have been a lot more reliable that the other two fleets.

Which is it then

 

[Bald Rick]

No Nova 1's will be leaving TPE, even if the consultation on the ECML means that services north of Newcastle are abandoned (never got going in the first place).

I agree it’s unlikly, but I wouldn’t be betting my mortgage on that. In the current state of ‘franchise’ negotiations, almost anything is possible with TPE. Hence all these rumours!

 

[daodao]

Given the regional nature of TPE routes, with many sections wired (and more to come), why did TPE not just order a single fleet of bi-modes, such at the class 755 Flirts now used in East Anglia, for their north Transpennine services, rather than 3 different expensive and unreliable train types?

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes, but if they are just shuttling between York and Scarborough all day, 3000 miles takes quite a long time to accumulate. 3000 divided by 42 (distance between York and Scarborough) is 71 journeys.

You also have to bear in mind this is a fleet. Few of them are in service which won't help with the figures, but if all 14 were in operation, an average MTIN of 3000 across all of them would mean you'd expect a defect more than once a day.