Questions regarding the Paddington Penzance sleeper in 1966

[UrieS15]

Was there one? I assume there was with Wilson holidaying in the Scillies . departure time July and where would a passenger for Bodmin Road leave the train - Plymouth or St.A? Your usual brilliant help please.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Which day of the week?

 

[Gloster]

Wouldn’t the sleeper have stopped at Bodmin Road? I presume that the sleepers ran every day, including Saturday night.

 

[UrieS15]

Which day of the week?

Sorry Thursday please.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2020 ==

Wouldn’t the sleeper have stopped at Bodmin Road? I presume that the sleepers ran every day, including Saturday night.

If you say so. I ask because I had learned in an earlier discussion the the Riviera had cut out Bodmin Road, and you had to leave at Plymouth and catch a second train which stopped all the way while the Riv roared of to the West.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Thursday night/Friday morning July 1966

22.30 Padd - Penz, slow via Bristol, Exeter 03.39, Ply 05.14, no Bodmin Rd, Penz 08.10
23.50 Padd - Penz, even slower (even Weston SM, Dawlish, Saltash!) via Bristol, Exeter 05.14, Ply 07.15, Bodmin Rd 08.26, Penz 10.05, sleepers to Ply
00.30 Padd - Penz, fast to Ply 04s42, Bodmin Rd 05s46, Penz 07.40, sleeping car passengers only

Friday night there was also 22.55 Padd - Penz, fast to Ply 03.15, no Bodmin Rd, Penz 05.50, sleeping cars for Scilly Isles passengers only

 

[Helvellyn]

Thursday night/Friday morning July 1966

22.30 Padd - Penz, slow via Bristol, Exeter 03.39, Ply 05.14, no Bodmin Rd, Penz 08.10
23.50 Padd - Penz, even slower (even Weston SM, Dawlish, Saltash!) via Bristol, Exeter 05.14, Ply 07.15, Bodmin Rd 08.26, Penz 10.05, sleepers to Ply
00.30 Padd - Penz, fast to Ply 04s42, Bodmin Rd 05s46, Penz 07.40, sleeping car passengers only

Friday night there was also 22.55 Padd - Penz, fast to Ply 03.15, no Bodmin Rd, Penz 05.50, sleeping cars for Scilly Isles passengers only

Any idea where the 00:30 would have overtaken the 22:30?

 

[Gloster]

Any idea where the 00:30 would have overtaken the 22:30?

Based on my recollections from fifteen years later, I would guess that it was at Exeter, although Taunton is a possibility. The 00.30 would have gone down the Berks & Hants, as did the 00.30 Newspaper working in the early 1980s.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Any idea where the 00:30 would have overtaken the 22:30?

The 22.30 got to Taunton at 02.55 so I would have thought the 00.30 would have gone past by then, although not long before.

 

[Gloster]

The 22.30 got to Taunton at 02.55 so I would have thought the 00.30 would have gone past by then, although not long before.

Yes, probably, even though sleepers were driven in a more relaxed manner, i.e. sharp braking and acceleration avoided if possible. (I misread the arrival time at Plymouth.)

 

[MichaelAMW]

Based on my recollections from fifteen years later, I would guess that it was at Exeter, although Taunton is a possibility. The 00.30 would have gone down the Berks & Hants, as did the 00.30 Newspaper working in the early 1980s.

I think Exeter looks a bit tight for the 04.42 arrival at Plymouth, as you'd barely have an hour, and the 22.30 was only at Exeter for 7 minutes, which is an unnecessarily slim margin for a passing move at that time of night - and you would probably have had boxes switched out here and there so the headway might have been quite a bit.

Edit: I see you've added an extra comment!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2020 ==

Based on my recollections from fifteen years later, I would guess that it was at Exeter, although Taunton is a possibility. The 00.30 would have gone down the Berks & Hants, as did the 00.30 Newspaper working in the early 1980s.

I've checked 15 years later, 1981, and by then there was only one sleeper and it only had 2 minutes at Exeter.

 

[Gloster]

I think Exeter looks a bit tight for the 04.42 arrival at Plymouth, as you'd barely have an hour, and the 22.30 was only at Exeter for 7 minutes, which is an unnecessarily slim margin for a passing move at that time of night - and you would probably have had boxes switched out here and there so the headway might have been quite a bit.

Edit: I see you've added an extra comment!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2020 ==



I've checked 15 years later, 1981, and by then there was only one sleeper and it only had 2 minutes at Exeter.

At Taunton the loop effectively ran as far as Norton Fitzwarren, so giving more margin for passing. Towards Exeter there were still boxes every five or six minutes running time apart, as I think that Wellington would still have had a night shift, as would Norton Fitzwarren; Victory was probably still open.

The second sleeper ended somewhere around 1978/1979, I think. Certainly it had gone by mid-1980.

 

[Taunton]

I wrote here previously about the procedures at Taunton (and doubtless key points elsewhere) in the 1960s-70s when the Prime Minister was on the sleeper

Do drivers know if a VIP is on board their train?

I just saw Boris is getting the train from Euston to Birmingham and made a guess he's on 9G06. That made me wonder, do the driver and train staff know if they have a VIP on board or not? Sometimes the Queen takes a scheduled service to Norfolk. Or would the driver not want to know if a VIP was...

www.railforums.co.uk

The sleeper via Westbury would have passed on these timings before the train via Bristol, which would cross to the Down Main at the west end of Taunton station. After the Norton Fitzwarren accident in 1940 it was Taunton practice at night not to send expresses to Norton on the Down Relief, and if really necessary they would hold the train in the platform until the loco whistled for signals when ready to start, to be certain the driver knew which line they were signalled on. There were aspects of signal handling in the accident not in the official report but which all at Taunton knew about. In any event you don't want to slack for a crossover at Norton right at the foot of Wellington bank, you always want to have a good blast at it right from the Taunton start.

Victory Siding box would be open all night because (1) it controlled the level crossing over the Taunton to Hillfarrance road [nowadays an AHB], and (2) the busiest time on weekdays over the WofE line was at night, when the majority of goods traffic ran, along with all the parcels, mail, news, sleepers and overnights, and all the boxes were open. The Taunton south side goods loop and its boxes were actually closed day shift but open through the night. Wellington would certainly be open as well (did it even have a switch?), apart from looping freights that's where the bankers were attached (at least one there, on busy nights two, with Taunton crews) for the steep bit up to Whiteball, the bankers then returning to Wellington. The longstanding 41xx on these turns would be gone by 1966, it was now a Hymek.

 

[UrieS15]

Thank you all so much for the detailed replies.

 

[30907]

Based on my recollections from fifteen years later, I would guess that it was at Exeter, although Taunton is a possibility. The 00.30 would have gone down the Berks & Hants, as did the 00.30 Newspaper working in the early 1980s.

I rather think the 00.30 was a handful of sleepers attached to the Newspapers, which of course needed a very fast timing - except for Saturday mornings when it ran separately at 00.35. I agree that it would have been ahead from Taunton (and I would guess had enough slack in the timetable to divert via Bristol if necessary, in which case the 22.50 would have followed from there.

 

[Gloster]

Slightly curious, to my mind, that you have two different traffics that are treated very differently in the same train. Newspapers that are to be got to their destination as fast as possible with drivers usually going right up to the limits of what is allowed, and sleeping car passengers, where drivers were expected to take things, especially acceleration and braking, as gently as possible to try and avoid disturbing the sleeper. Was it that getting the London papers to the wholesalers for early delivery was a lower priority then than it later became, possibly because regional papers still had a far greater relative importance?

 

[mailbyrail]

Most long distance newspaper trains carried sorting staff who broke down the big bundles produced by the printers into parcels for individual newsagents. It was one of the big advantages of rail over road. Of course not all newspaper trains carried out sorting on board.
Unlike post office TPOs which were specially adapted for the purpose with specially designed sorting frames, cushioned corners to avoid bruises, tea urns, reasonably effective heating etc newspaper trains generally consisted of GUVs (or the Western region equivalent) and standard passenger brake coaches. The sorters stood up and used folding wallpaper tables to organise the bundles. If the sorters on board had any comforts, they were carried on board by the men (I only ever saw men) themselves.
Back in the mid 1970s I did a project monitoring the flow of papers and even though I didn't travel on the trains, I did see the working conditions and speak to the sorters - very much an unglamorous hard life compared to post office sorters.
Any newspaper train with sorters on board would not have been able to be

going right up to the limits of what is allowed

otherwise there would have been sorters and papers flying around in the train behind.
I imagine the Paddington-Penzance carried sorters for at least part of the journey.

 

[30907]

Slightly curious, to my mind, that you have two different traffics that are treated very differently in the same train. Newspapers that are to be got to their destination as fast as possible with drivers usually going right up to the limits of what is allowed, and sleeping car passengers, where drivers were expected to take things, especially acceleration and braking, as gently as possible to try and avoid disturbing the sleeper. Was it that getting the London papers to the wholesalers for early delivery was a lower priority then than it later became, possibly because regional papers still had a far greater relative importance?

Not sure the gentle treatment thing was such a factor in the 60s, and a 4 hour timing to Plymouth was much the same as the Riviera in steam days, so not hanging around. You are right about regional papers, though - there was a flow of newspapers (Western Morning News?) from Plymouth to North Devon via Yeoford when the SR ran the routes.

BTW my 1969 WTT has a different pattern of sleeper workings, leaving around 0100 after the papers, with the old "via Bristol" semifast being seats only -which is how I remember it from one trip in the mid 70s - TSOs not SKs too

PS just read mailbyrail's comment from a different angle.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I am not at all sure about the Penzance sleeper conveying news. I was involved with W. R. newspaper traffic much later (1977 ish) and looking at the Marshalling Circular I retained it was all passenger carrying stock.
Loading the news at Paddington was a big operation, particular the Sunday supplements (despatched Friday nights, I think) . Hard up HQ clerical staff (and some management staff...) were welcome to help, but it was quite hectic. It took several hours, in the suburban side. There were still mainly Syphon G then, code SG in the circular (not in the BR official code book!)
The L.M.R. had proper heavy wooden tables in their newspaper sorting vans, one of my mates found they were a real pain to manhandle between vans in the dark when a GUV got a red card in Willesden C.S.

 

[Gloster]

A look at the 1964 timetable on Michael Clemens’ website does show the 00.30 conveying both sleeping-cars and news (and parcels) in 1964. If I had to guess, I would say that the sleepers and news later being separated was a combination of the reduction of the sleeping-car trains from three to two because of falling traffic and increasing newspaper volume, possibly due to tabloids replacing regionals.

As far as the working of the news trains in the 1980s, when they still had packers, they were tightly timed, but not really much more so point to point than the Riviera or Hind. The packers probably just got used to knowing where to keep a hand on the table and where not to start moving large bundles: other than Reading there aren’t any really sharp curves the whole way to Plymouth. And the 00.30 didn’t stop except at Taunton: four minutes to change crews and cut off the rear vans.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

By 1972 the situation was (from WTT ):-

1B75 2225 PAD - PZ TPO (via Bristol TM)

1B83 2345 PAD - PZ (via Bristol TM) - (Sleeping Car + GUV (Motor Cars) for Exeter St. D only).

1B85 0035 PAD - PZ News and Parcels (via B&H)
1B89 0050 PAD - PZ Sleeping Cars + GUV (Motor Cars) (via B&H)

 

[Taunton]

other than Reading there aren’t any really sharp curves the whole way to Plymouth.

Um, I guess you never came down the corkscrew from Dainton through Totnes in the days before speed recorders, getting a run at Rattery up the other side!

 

[Gloster]

Um, I guess you never came down the corkscrew from Dainton through Totnes in the days before speed recorders, getting a run at Rattery up the other side!

I should have stuck to my original intention to say ‘the whole way to Newton Abbot ‘, but I tried to be clever. The packers would just have known to be a bit wary over that bit.