RMT Ballot Scotrail Members For Strike Action

[mph9937]

If a TOC wants to pay their cleaners £27,000 + then surely that it up to them. Wether you think that is too much or not is down to the individual. Some of our trains can be absolutely disgusting to clean so I don’t envy any cleaner doing the job. But put it into perspective of what cleaners would get in schools and hospitals and you can see why some people would get annoyed/jealous call it what you want at those earning that kind of money. So I don’t think a strike at this time wouldn’t be a very good idea!

Anyway this was a thread about RMT ballot on Scotrail for strike action and not cleaners wages!

I’m a strong believer of having guards on trains I think they are invaluable at knowing what’s going on dealing with all sorts of situations.
But since COVID I do think they have had it a little easier. At my TOC guards do not go through the train, they do not collect revenue, they stay in their back cab to keep safe (rightly so as well!!)
Some guards brag about reading several books, watching box sets on Netflix, some have even completed baby clothes through knitting etc...
Also whilst on spare they get to stay at home so as not to have too many people in the mess room. Due to the reduce service level this has resulted in some diagrams being spare all week. So that means not even going into work for a full week!!

So for RMT now to come out and want to potentially strike about a wage increase this year I find is totally disgusting and can’t even believe they are contemplating this!

Yes we are key workers and yes we have been all working since the start of this pandemic, but so have millions of other key workers who have had it far worse than we have and I don’t hear them wishing to go on strike, they just get on with the job they get paid to do!

I for one would be happy to take a pay freeze for the next couple of years to get us through this.

I agree with an earlier thread as well. Scotrail won’t care one bit about the strike and will take it on the chin.

During this time and with passenger levels so low it won’t really effect many people and those that it do effect will have absolutely 0% sympathy with rail staff not getting their above inflation pay rise this year!!

Surely we should be grateful in this age of mass redundancies that we have a job and a well paid job to go to and not throw our toys out of the pram like RMT want their members to do.

I just hope RMT members see some sense in this and reject the need for a strike, I doubt it though as some people just see ££££... and not the bigger picture

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I wish MPs would set an example by not taking a pay rise. No ammunition for RMT etc then.

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

There was uproar when Network Rail withheld the bonus this year, then capped it and then didn't pay it to Band 1 and Band 2 staff. However, in the Network Rail bubble, staff have been sitting at home on full pay and shift enhancements, full pay when shielding, full pay when isolating, no redundancies, no reduced hours, a bonus and still working overtime. My view is that, for this year at least, that would be enough to forgo a pay rise this year and then negotiate for next year.

The RMT are not my cup of tea as they aren't progressive enough. They are supposed to be the conscience of the business and a stakeholder but have used COVID to wield their power. However, their rhetoric and actions are counterproductive and eventually will not be tolerated.

As for the cleaners at ScotRail. Good on them. It doesn't have to be a race to the bottom and the Government will always try to erode pay and conditions, especially in the wake of Brexit. The Government like nothing better than the working classes turning on each other, it deflects from their own problems.

 

[sannox]

This seems a strange time to be considering action over pay. Be interesting to see how much support there is on this from the staff.

I do wonder with the EMA this is putting pressure on the government knowing 6 months or so to an election?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This seems a strange time to be considering action over pay.

Exactly my point. This really should be put on hold for a year or two, then restart it once the economy is in better long-term shape.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Think you'll find your mum has the right to apply for a 27k cleaning job and join a union. But she probably hasn't done the former and given your attitude probably hasn't done the latter either.

Ah yes, she'll get her 27 grand and get sacked by the school after a year because they can't afford to keep her. Some excellent, sound logic there. This is the real world where there is currently a recession, not a land of milk & honey where you can buy a house on a minimum wage job or a marxist utopia where everyone's equal.

I wish MPs would set an example by not taking a pay rise. No ammunition for RMT etc then.

Oh 100%. They should lead by example and if they want more money, get a newspaper column or write a book or something.

 

[packermac]

So I am understanding that no one has been laid off or even furloughed on 80% and yet the RMT think a pay rise is in order?
If so what an utter bunch of clowns, they need to look at the rest of the economy and be thankful for what they have.

 

[peters]

For all those saying that these cleaners are paid too much, remember if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys...

There's a huge difference between giving someone a good salary for the type of work they do and overpaying them. Would you be happy if a train company MD got paid £300,000 if he or she was the best MD in the transport industry?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2020 ==

Using the pandemic as an excuse to repress the wages of working-class people is immoral.

One definition of working class is they are the people who are paid by the hour. If cleaners are getting junior manager salaries (not wages) for doing 'unskilled' jobs then they can't be considered working class. The real working class are the people who rely on the train to get to work and may lose a day's pay due to the RMT calling a strike, with that loss of pay being the difference between putting food on the table and going without.

 

[Tom Quinne]

£27,000 for cleaners is frankly an abuse of taxpayer money and the quicker it is outsourced and wage costs brought down to a level more consistent with the rate of pay for cleaners more generally the better. There should be a specific exemption to employment law with regards to forced pay cuts in cases like this where it can be demonstrated that a salary is grossly disproportionate compared to similar jobs in the same area.

God forbid Key workers earn a decent wage, what is it you do for employment so we can say whether your salary is an abuse of whoever your companies customer is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2020 ==

Using the pandemic as an excuse to repress the wages of working-class people is immoral.

You forget the, I’m not on that much so why should you/they be point of why in this country these days.

 

[bluenoxid]

I am surprised that ASLEF have not been called in to review their existing agreement but I guess we won’t know that as considerations and hypotheticals will be kept under wraps

 

[Tom Quinne]

More foolish than immoral.

With 90% lower usage, who will notice the strike? With EMA contracts, the operator may not care either.. they are hardly going to see a revenue hit. Striking at the wrong time will just cost the crew lost earnings.

The remaining 10% are stilling leaving trains like mobile dustbins, with all kinds of nasty things left in toilets, seats, tables and floors. Name a body fluid, these guys have to clean it up !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2020 ==

It's not jealousy, just what's so different about a train vs a school? And I (as well as my mum for sure) wouldn't demand 27k a year for a few hours a day work during a pandemic induced recession because I'm not insane.

Do the childern or teachers poo on the floors, seats or tables? Vomit on the floors, seats or tables? Leave dirty hygiene products on the floor, tables or seats ?

That’s just to name but a few nasties these guys clean up in one shift !

 

[peters]

Do the childern or teachers poo on the floors, seats or tables? Vomit on the floors, seats or tables? Leave dirty hygiene products on the floor, tables or seats ?

That’s just to name but a few nasties these guys clean up in one shift !

I'm sure at a primary school many children do have accidents when feeling sick or not getting to the toilet on time. Cleaners would also have to ensure the school kitchen is cleaned to a specific food hygiene standard.

 

[Tom Quinne]

There was uproar when Network Rail withheld the bonus this year, then capped it and then didn't pay it to Band 1 and Band 2 staff. However, in the Network Rail bubble, staff have been sitting at home on full pay and shift enhancements, full pay when shielding, full pay when isolating, no redundancies, no reduced hours, a bonus and still working overtime. My view is that, for this year at least, that would be enough to forgo a pay rise this year and then negotiate for next year.

The RMT are not my cup of tea as they aren't progressive enough. They are supposed to be the conscience of the business and a stakeholder but have used COVID to wield their power. However, their rhetoric and actions are counterproductive and eventually will not be tolerated.

As for the cleaners at ScotRail. Good on them. It doesn't have to be a race to the bottom and the Government will always try to erode pay and conditions, especially in the wake of Brexit. The Government like nothing better than the working classes turning on each other, it deflects from their own problems.

As a fat cat network rail employee aka scum of the earth....I have worked pretty much my legal maximum of six twelve hour days with a single Mandatory rest day with another six twelve hour days the whole of the episode.

That’s a front line operational role keeping the railway running, putting my health and that of my family at risk as I work in a air sealed ROC with 14 other people for 12hrs a day.

I expect my bonus, and a pay award next year we’ve worked bloody hard and frankly deserve it.

 

[peters]

Yes, they support their members legally if they're threatened with dismissal - one of the main reasons for joining a union is as a kind of legal insurance in case your employer is a bit arbitrary in dismissing you for supposed misconduct.

Would the RMT prefer no pay rise and no dismissals or a 3% payrise and 3% of guards facing dismissal?

They are happy to demand above inflation pay rises when a company returns profits, so surely they should be happy to accept a pay freeze to protect jobs when a company returns losses.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I'm sure at a primary school many children do have accidents when feeling sick or not getting to the toilet on time. Cleaners would also have to ensure the school kitchen is cleaned to a specific food hygiene standard.

There is a huge difference between a child throwing up, and a drunken adult throwing up over everything in the carriage, then taking a poo or wee in the doorway.

Theyll also be PTS trained, COSH and other specialist cleaning competencies, I’d suggest you send a week on nights at a busy traincare depot youll then see how hard these people work,

 

[Yew]

One definition of working class is they are the people who are paid by the hour. If cleaners are getting junior manager salaries (not wages) for doing 'unskilled' jobs then they can't be considered working class. The real working class are the people who rely on the train to get to work and may lose a day's pay due to the RMT calling a strike, with that loss of pay being the difference between putting food on the table and going without.

Ownership of the means of production.

 

[peters]

As a fat cat network rail employee aka scum of the earth....I have worked pretty much my legal maximum of six twelve hour days with a single Mandatory rest day with another six twelve hour days the whole of the episode.

That’s a front line operational role keeping the railway running, putting my health and that of my family at risk as I work in a air sealed ROC with 14 other people for 12hrs a day.

I expect my bonus, and a pay award next year we’ve worked bloody hard and frankly deserve it.

Unfortunately, a pay rise doesn't always go hand in hand with hard work, especially in unionised roles. The unions seem to think everyone deserves a uniform above inflation pay rise if the company has returned a profit, regardless of how hard they worked. In other industries you can be a green employee if you've met your targets and will get a pay rise similar to RPI, a blue if you've exceeded targets and get a bigger pay rise and if you've failed to meet targets then either no pay rise or a below inflation pay rise. The unionised way doesn't reward individual hard work, you can have the laziest colleague and they'll get the same pay rise as you even though they haven't earned it.

 

[221129]

If anyone actually took the time to look into the matter they would see it was because Scotrail thought it was appropriate to offer drivers only an above inflation payrise but not anyone else.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Staff just wanting to be treated equally.

 

[peters]

There is a huge difference between a child throwing up, and a drunken adult throwing up over everything in the carriage, then taking a poo or wee in the doorway.

Yes. The one occasion I threw up on a train it was fully within the toilet bowl and after the toilet was flushed there was no evidence of it for the cleaners to clean up. It was also the last time I threw up and that was around 7 years ago. Any parent of a young child would be very happy if they knew their child would only throw up once in 7 years and that there would be no cleaning up afterwards.

 

[221129]

Yes. The one occasion I threw up on a train it was fully within the toilet bowl and after the toilet was flushed there was no evidence of it for the cleaners to clean up. It was also the last time I threw up and that was around 7 years ago. Any parent of a young child would be very happy if they knew their child would only throw up once in 7 years and that there would be no cleaning up afterwards.

Well done you! Gold Star for being a responsible human being! Meanwhile not everyone is like you.

 

[peters]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Staff just wanting to be treated equally.

What did the drivers get in previous years compared to the RMT members?

If the drivers got extra for taking on additional responsibility, have the RMT members also taken on additional responsibility?

Have the drivers got pay increase clauses in their contracts which RMT members don't have? (If they do then it's crying over spilt milk as the RMT failed to negotiate good terms previously.)

In an office based environment if you said my colleague got a pay rise of x, I should get a pay rise of x and all things aren't equal and a few months later the company decided to make redundancies you'd be front of the queue for unprofessional conduct.

 

[221129]

If the drivers got extra for taking on additional responsibility, have the RMT members also taken on additional responsibility?

What extra responsibilities have drivers taken on please?

A lot of ScotRail grades have taken on extra cleaning responsibilities or other duties during COVID19 and been more exposed to it than most of the drivers.

 

[peters]

Meanwhile not everyone is like you.

I know. However, some people are better than me as they haven't been sick on a train in the first place, it's a minority who are sick on trains and an even smaller minority who don't get to the toilet or get off before throwing up. I travel on Northern trains, which sometimes don't look like they've been cleaned since the previous day e.g. by having yesterday's Metros or used train tickets from the previous day left on them but they don't all turn up with seats covered in sick.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2020 ==

What extra responsibilities have drivers taken on please?

A lot of ScotRail grades have taken on extra cleaning responsibilities or other duties during COVID19 and been more exposed to it than most of the drivers.

That's for the Scotrail staff to answer, if they choose to disclose that information. If not, it's a point to consider if you want everyone treated equally.

 

[LowLevel]

If anyone actually took the time to look into the matter they would see it was because Scotrail thought it was appropriate to offer drivers only an above inflation payrise but not anyone else.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Staff just wanting to be treated equally.

It was year 2 of a 2 year deal agreed and signed off last year before the pandemic.

They've not offered anything, they've already signed up it. The RMT presumably didn't have a multi year deal in place.

Ironically compared to my own TOC ASLEF drivers earn less than ours and the guards earn more than ours. Maybe national pay bargaining will sort it out, or maybe pigs will fly

 

[theironroad]

As a fat cat network rail employee aka scum of the earth....I have worked pretty much my legal maximum of six twelve hour days with a single Mandatory rest day with another six twelve hour days the whole of the episode.

That’s a front line operational role keeping the railway running, putting my health and that of my family at risk as I work in a air sealed ROC with 14 other people for 12hrs a day.

I expect my bonus, and a pay award next year we’ve worked bloody hard and frankly deserve it.

As someone who has just worked 13/14 days on, for the third time since March, partially covering shifts that would otherwise gone uncovered and lead to cancellations I can sympathize.

While passenger numbers may be down , there are still plenty of people out there walking around me not wearing masks etc and no BTP around to actually enforce the rules.

Tbh, there was never much apparent love for rail workers even during he height of the pandemic and cleaners deserve decent pay for the extra duties they've had put on them since March.

Sure, I get annoyed, angry and a wee bit offended when some people on here just think rail workers are there to be beaten down and shouldn't have the temerity to stand up for themselves.

I realise it's a minority, but there are a small, vicious minority who post on here who just seem to constantly smack rail workers in the face at any opportunity.

 

[peters]

I do recall a report about the RMT and Stagecoach members when Stagecoach offered 2% for the current year and 2% for the next year, the RMT negotiated and it became 4% for the current year and 0% for the following year, then the following year the RMT threatened strike action saying RPI is x but greedy profitable Stagecoach have only offered 0%.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2020 ==

deserve decent pay for the extra duties they've had put on them since March.

UK wide we are in a situation where since March most people have either taken on extra duties or been laid off temporarily or permanently. Almost every business (including train operators) has seen a massive drop in revenue and profits so unfortunately rewarding the people who have done extra usually comes at the price of job cuts, which is why so many aren't bothered about a pay rise if they've still got a job to go to. If Amazon Logistics ran the franchise, then maybe there would be money available for pay rises but they wouldn't necessarily offer the same standard of working conditions as Abellio.

 

[pompeyfan]

I know. However, some people are better than me as they haven't been sick on a train in the first place, it's a minority who are sick on trains and an even smaller minority who don't get to the toilet or get off before throwing up. I travel on Northern trains, which sometimes don't look like they've been cleaned since the previous day e.g. by having yesterday's Metros or used train tickets from the previous day left on them but they don't all turn up with seats covered in sick.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2020 ==



That's for the Scotrail staff to answer, if they choose to disclose that information. If not, it's a point to consider if you want everyone treated equally.

Some members of the public are animals. I used to do a lot of late duties away from London, and vomit was a regular occurrence any day of the week. The run up to Christmas was worse. One evening 4 piles of vomit on a 12 coach train, one of which was on the heating grille on the side of the carriage, I’ve seen office banker types absolutely rat ar$ed and covered in their own vomit as well as decorating toilets.
Football trains with cans fulls urine, messages drawn in faeces.

those cleaners earn every penny.

school children do occasionally have accidents and bugs do go round so it’s not unheard of, but it’s certainly rarer and of a different mindset

 

[peters]

Some members of the public are animals. I used to do a lot of late duties away from London, and vomit was a regular occurrence any day of the week. The run up to Christmas was worse. One evening 4 piles of vomit on a 12 coach train, one of which was on the heating grille on the side of the carriage, I’ve seen office banker types absolutely rat ar$ed and covered in their own vomit as well as decorating toilets.
Football trains with cans fulls urine, messages drawn in faeces.

Would those be the trains with no toilets on board? If so there's perhaps an obvious solution.

 

[221129]

Would those be the trains with no toilets on board? If so there's perhaps an obvious solution.

No....

 

[pompeyfan]

Would those be the trains with no toilets on board? If so there's perhaps an obvious solution.

No, there was 6 toilets on those trains, and most of the time 5 or more of the 6 are working, on a 10 coach train there are 8 toilets....