Time to end competition on buses due to pandemic?

[TheGrandWazoo]

It doesn't, but is that offset, to some extent, by the fact that many people don't like buses very much?

So they wouldn't get a feeder bus anyway?

 

[radamfi]

The cost quoted was for an Arriva sole operator ticket versus a subsidised ticket by Merseytravel, the PTE. You'll be taking money from bus operators and putting it into fares so you end up no better or worse off until passengers give up on the network as they don't like changing modes and then you end up worse off than you were before. I really don't get what you are trying to achieve here as everything suggested just leads to money being moved elsewhere and it all leads to a negative effect on the publics usage.

Berlin is extremely different to Birkenhead in many ways and I think as TGW said, you are looking at this in a very narrow minded way. What works in Berlin is extremely different to what works in the UK.

Even TGW, despite his reservations, seems open to the concept of changing modes and integrated fares in some circumstances. How can you be so sure that integrated fares wouldn't work in the Liverpool area?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So they wouldn't get a feeder bus anyway?

They might put up with a short journey by bus to connect with the trunk journey by train, but wouldn't want to sit half an hour on the bus. That doesn't really apply in the Birkenhead example, though.

 

[markymark2000]

Even TGW, despite his reservations, seems open to the concept of changing modes and integrated fares in some circumstances. How can you be so sure that integrated fares wouldn't work in the Liverpool area?

Integrated fares are kind of already there. Merseytravel fares are the multi operator, multi modal fares. They work. What doesn't work however is forcing people onto certain transport modes and as I have said, you are taking money from one area to give it to another. No actual financial benefit. It does however upset passengers being forced to change modes. If people want to change, they can and no one would stop them but as soon as you take choice away from people, they end up going to their cars. The Covid Bus Grant Funding will likely not be around forever and in which case, this discussion flies out of the window (for Liverpool at least). Bus usage is around 60% now and so the grant funding isn't topping up as much as it was. When covid goes back to a manageable level and life returns to a form of normal (new or old normal), the grant will likely go and bus operators left to deal with the frequencies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Integrated fares are kind of already there. Merseytravel fares are the multi operator, multi modal fares. They work.

They do, but bus only fares (including the Merseytravel Solo) exist and are cheaper (and in the case of operator specific seasons are easier to buy as the bus driver sells them). That skews demand. Those tickets should not exist at all; there should be one set of fares for all modes and all operators in a city area (ideally zonal; Merseytravel has an established plan for this). If there is a need for certain groups to have discounted tickets due to e.g. low income, those should be discounted for that demographic across all modes rather than buses being for poor people and trains for rich people as happens in London.

 

[markymark2000]

They do, but bus only fares (including the Merseytravel Solo) exist and are cheaper (and in the case of operator specific seasons are easier to buy as the bus driver sells them). That skews demand. Those tickets should not exist at all; there should be one set of fares for all modes and all operators in a city area (ideally zonal; Merseytravel has an established plan for this). If there is a need for certain groups to have discounted tickets due to e.g. low income, those should be discounted for that demographic across all modes rather than buses being for poor people and trains for rich people as happens in London.

Child tickets are 95% Merseytravel MyTickets, not the operator specific ones. Operators have but don't really sell their own child tickets anymore (unless someone is travelling out of the area) because the MyTicket is subsidised so cheaply, there is no demand for normal tickets.
Merseytravel Solos are sold as standard for some companies since some of the independents don't have their own range of fares.


One set fare for all modes sounds great and looks great but it needs subsidy so you pay more taxes to cover it. Merseytravel has the zones but they aren't really used other than the modal tickets.
The end issue with all fare discussions is money. Either it's subsidised through taxes or users pay a bit more. The Merseyside fares are in my opinion very good as they are. It's a fair price and the quality is very good from all modes. If you reduce fares, more subsidy is needed from the taxpayers and you end up going round in circles about who should pay for transport fares, taxpayers or the users.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Even TGW, despite his reservations, seems open to the concept of changing modes and integrated fares in some circumstances. How can you be so sure that integrated fares wouldn't work in the Liverpool area?

It's not reservations. It's the appropriateness rather than a dogmatic approach that says "train good/bus bad". Having some arbitrary rule that you have to change at Birkenhead whether it's convenient or not just seems at odds with providing what passengers want.

There are multi-operator and multi-modal fares in numerous locations. Of course, one of the most extensive is PlusBus but it is poorly promoted by both rail and bus companies.

They might put up with a short journey by bus to connect with the trunk journey by train, but wouldn't want to sit half an hour on the bus. That doesn't really apply in the Birkenhead example, though.

It was a tongue in cheek comment. I think we're actually of similar minds. Aside from the financial, the issue on interchange from bus to train is simply this..... is the juice worth the squeeze. Is it time benefit worth the faff? When travelling from Hoylake, a short bus trip onto the train to Liverpool makes sense. From Bidston, a bus to Bidston stn and then a train to Liverpool, compared with a direct bus isn't.

I do agree that the bus industry does need to raise itself above being perceived as a poor relation. That's not to say every bus should be an air conditioned Citaro but Transdev and Go Ahead (in the main) are showing that it should be more than a mode reserved for the socio economic D/E.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do agree that the bus industry does need to raise itself above being perceived as a poor relation. That's not to say every bus should be an air conditioned Citaro but Transdev and Go Ahead (in the main) are showing that it should be more than a mode reserved for the socio economic D/E.

I certainly agree with that. There's two ways of doing it - create desire, as a certain shorts-wearing bloke[1] would have it, or just making it all look really professional, clean, tidy etc (but fairly boring) as the Germans would have it. I think there's mileage in both of those things, and there are a few places in the UK that do seem to achieve both, e.g. Transdev Yorkshire, but in most of the UK (even London) neither is done particularly well.

If Manchester's franchising proceeds, it will be interesting to see where the "look and feel" of that ends up sitting.

[1] I too pretty much always wear shorts, but not quite as loud and revealing as his are!