"Fill-in" electrification ideas.

[43096]

Yes - huge win. It was top of the list in the Julian Worth article and presentation in terms of diesel to electric conversion per mile of route sparked up. Not sure of what the cost per mile would be though - north of 2 million quid per mile easily I would have thought.

Agreed. That and Felixstowe ought to be a priority.

 

[daodao]

I hope you are right I really do. Then again, I didn’t think Preston to Manchester would be as eye wateringly expensive as it was. I assume the area is well north of the old salt mines?

The potential subsidence around Northwich would could cause problems if one was to contemplate electrifying the ex-CLC line between Knutsford and Greenbank, but such a proposal should be kicked into the long grass, as this line is primarily used by freight, with a sparse passenger service.

 

[markymark2000]

The bimodes are coming. And they won’t be running to Scotland.

Bimodes go onto the scotland route normally in times of disruption for diversions. Hence why about once every 6-8 weeks, the Chester &NWC services get cut back to Crewe.

 

[Bald Rick]

Bimodes go onto the scotland route normally in times of disruption for diversions. Hence why about once every 6-8 weeks, the Chester &NWC services get cut back to Crewe.

Voyagers go on the route in time of disruptions. That ma6 not be the case for the bimodes.

 

[Jack Hay]

I hope you are right I really do. Then again, I didn’t think Preston to Manchester would be as eye wateringly expensive as it was. I assume the area is well north of the old salt mines?

Yes it is. It's HS2 which is proposed to be built acorss the old salt beds!

 

[markymark2000]

Voyagers go on the route in time of disruptions. That ma6 not be the case for the bimodes.

But it likely will though. Why would that change? They need a diesel train for diversions, and Voyagers currently fill that but the Bimodes are replacing the Voyagers and thus their current duties on the railway.

Unless you intend on electrifying all the WCML diversion routes, you cut trains back and don't run them at times of disruption, you will need another form of power. Batteries & hydrogen etc aren't due to be in use on the Pendos or the new trains and thus you will need diesel power to get the train where it's going on non electrified lines.

 

[Jack Hay]

The potential subsidence around Northwich would could cause problems if one was to contemplate electrifying the ex-CLC line between Knutsford and Greenbank, but such a proposal should be kicked into the long grass, as this line is primarily used by freight, with a sparse passenger service.

That line (Stockport to Chester) was ranked 4th best candidate for electrification out of the 32 un-electrified lines in the north of England, i.e. very high ranking, in the Northern Sparks Electrification Taskforce report in 2015. Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool was 2nd, Calder Valley was 1st.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

But it likely will though. Why would that change?

They're not replacing the Voyagers on a like for like basis - the 7 car Hitachi units are straight electric, not bimode.

 

[JonathanH]

As a matter of interest, does the track layout at Felixstowe and Thames Gateway (and any other freight terminals where electrification might happen) allow the train to get to the container crane sidings without the wires and cranes getting muddled or are some track changes needed?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

As a matter of interest, does the track layout at Felixstowe and Thames Gateway (and any other freight terminals where electrification might happen) allow the train to get to the container crane sidings without the wires and cranes getting muddled or are some track changes needed?

There's no way to avoid the wires and cranes getting muddled (actually, technically there is, if you used an massive traverser) so you always need some form of shunting to account for the fact there's no way to move an AC loco on OLE through the loading area.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There's no way to avoid the wires and cranes getting muddled (actually, technically there is, if you used an massive traverser) so you always need some form of shunting to account for the fact there's no way to move an AC loco on OLE through the loading area.

Battery shutters?

 

[Dr Hoo]

As a matter of interest, does the track layout at Felixstowe and Thames Gateway (and any other freight terminals where electrification might happen) allow the train to get to the container crane sidings without the wires and cranes getting muddled or are some track changes needed?

This is a real issue that is often glossed over. Obviously you can't have wires under the 'cranes' so you then end up with separate site shunting locomotives with all of the (un)coupling, brake tests, stabling point and so forth. These cost money (up front and ongoing), waste time, reduce terminal capacity and increase safety/performance risks.

Bi-mode locomotives with 'last mile' off-wire capability can help here but are themselves more expensive, require more training, are possibly slower when off the wire, etc.

For very short freight branches (possibly including London Gateway but also Tilbury2, Seaforth, East Midlands Gateway, Birch Coppice and so on in due course) it may well not be worth the trouble of designing and managing a wiring 'project' when there are other more straightforward routes to be done.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Class 88s. There just has to be a way to electrify freight.

 

[JonathanH]

This is a real issue that is often glossed over. Obviously you can't have wires under the 'cranes' so you then end up with separate site shunting locomotives with all of the (un)coupling, brake tests, stabling point and so forth. These cost money (up front and ongoing), waste time, reduce terminal capacity and increase safety/performance risks.

Bi-mode locomotives with 'last mile' off-wire capability can help here but are themselves more expensive, require more training, are possibly slower when off the wire, etc.

For very short freight branches (possibly including London Gateway but also Tilbury2, Seaforth, East Midlands Gateway, Birch Coppice and so on in due course) it may well not be worth the trouble of designing and managing a wiring 'project' when there are other more straightforward routes to be done.

It isn't insurmountable though is it, the trick appears to be to 'reverse in' / get dragged into the relevant transfer siding with the container crane above - my point was whether the track layout at the relevant terminals allows whatever form of operation exists at Mossend, Daventry, Trafford or any of the other places where electric-hauled container freight trains already happen.

 

[Non Multi]

AC loco with a permanent battery tender for yard work. Would be recharged by running under the wires.

 

[markymark2000]

That line (Stockport to Chester) was ranked 4th best candidate for electrification out of the 32 un-electrified lines in the north of England, i.e. very high ranking, in the Northern Sparks Electrification Taskforce report in 2015. Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool was 2nd, Calder Valley was 1st.

Like... How. I don't get how that is high up on the list. That's bonkers. Surely there has to be better lines out there to do which would have a bigger impact, not a little 1tph line with not much potential for increQuite a few bridges to contend with and the the Northwich viaduct.

They're not replacing the Voyagers on a like for like basis - the 7 car Hitachi units are straight electric, not bimode.

So if alternative power is needed due to diversions, there will be more strain on the bimodes so in theory, Chester and the NWC is more likely to have cuts than it was before as a result of the reduced amount of diesel trains.

 

[Domh245]

So if alternative power is needed due to diversions, there will be more strain on the bimodes so in theory, Chester and the NWC is more likely to have cuts than it was before as a result of the reduced amount of diesel trains.

It's more likely that they don't try to run diverts and simply just bus passengers instead

 

[The Ham]

On freight yards with cranes, assuming that there's space could you not:
- loco 1 pulls train into a holding area
- loco 2 couples up
- loco 1 uncouples and moves out the way - loco 2 pushes wagons into loading/unloading area
- loco 1 moves to be in position to become loco 2 for next train
- loco 2 pulls train onto mainline to take the train where it's going

Clearly not ideal for low frequency services, but could work well for the large container ports.

How viable would a system which looked a bit like that uses on a lot of rollercoasters (chain drive to drag up inclines and use gravity to run downhill and breaking sections where needed), that would be going back to some of the early trackway systems but probably only using small level changes (reducing the risk of significant incident).

 

[tetudo boy]

Crewe to Chester. There is absolutely no reason for it to not be electrified.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It's more likely that they don't try to run diverts and simply just bus passengers instead

There's not exactly an extensive number of diesel only diversionary routes in use by Avanti now a number of the older diversionary routes around Manchester have been electrified - it's a little surreal to think of some of the places we used to see a Class 57 dragging a Class 390 set - Chorley, Lostock etc, now fully electrified with the occasional Pendolino diversion operating on electric.

 

[Richard Scott]

Crewe to Chester. There is absolutely no reason for it to not be electrified.

This one seems an obvious win especially as it's almost all plain line, the complex bits at Crewe are already in place due to the Electric depot.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Crewe to Chester. There is absolutely no reason for it to not be electrified.

I think there's a few awkward structures, such as bridges that would be difficult to raise easily.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think there's a few awkward structures, such as bridges that would be difficult to raise easily.

Just the 40 or so.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I think there's a few awkward structures, such as bridges that would be difficult to raise easily.

Plus the canal tunnel at Christleton.

 

[Jack Hay]

Like... How. I don't get how that is high up on the list. That's bonkers. Surely there has to be better lines out there to do which would have a bigger impact, not a little 1tph line with not much potential for ...

If you want to understand it, read the report - I did. Here it is https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/EFT_Report_FINAL_web.pdf . The basic reason seems to be that Stockport-Chester serves areas with little alternative public transport, there is suppressed demand because the existing service is so slow, and with so many station stops, electric will produces a decent journey time improvement. Regarding it being a '1tph line', you are overlooking that it is really a 2tph line. Two trains per hour is the minimum service requirement written into the Northern franchise, which has never been delivered owing to unsolved line capacity issues in south Manchester. The business case for 2tph was made at the time of the last franchise change. So it is a busier line with more potential than you may think.

 

[py_megapixel]

The business case for 2tph was made at the time of the last franchise change. So it is a busier line with more potential than you may think.

Indeed.

There's also a case being made for a new station on that line at Cheadle, and by what I've seen of the buses there, there seems to be plenty of demand into Manchester. I'd reckon on electric a 15-20 minute journey into Manchester would be achievable (it's only about 20 on diesel from Navigation Road as is) which is extremely competitive with the buses, especially in the peak when they get stuck in traffic through Didsbury and Fallowfield.

 

[BayPaul]

Crewe to Chester. There is absolutely no reason for it to not be electrified.

The big future advantage of that would be that Chester trains could then use HS2 to reach London, which would further increase capacity of the WCML as well as speeding up journeys to Chester. Not an easy stretch to do with the number of bridges however as others have said, and it would presumably mean the end of through services from Holyhead to London.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think there's a few awkward structures, such as bridges that would be difficult to raise easily.

Just the 40 or so.

Plus the canal tunnel at Christleton.

These comments were my recollection too from I think a much earlier thread which I can not find. And track lowering would surely make the line worse than a roller coaster - far from easy that is for sure.

 

[The Planner]

The big future advantage of that would be that Chester trains could then use HS2 to reach London, which would further increase capacity of the WCML as well as speeding up journeys to Chester. Not an easy stretch to do with the number of bridges however as others have said, and it would presumably mean the end of through services from Holyhead to London.

Which HS2 train is being diverted to do that though?

 

[BayPaul]

Which HS2 train is being diverted to do that though?

Isn't there still a 200m Liverpool train that could have a back half added to it?