Uses for ex-Grand Central Mk4s?

[craigybagel]

Nothing. No current bi mode locos at all which would be capable. 68s the best diesels, but unlikely that DRS would have enough for this. 67s probably available, but their performance isn't great.

Exactly. So as strange as it is for XC to need to alter it's timetable to make it work, it makes more sense then using them to replace Voyagers when there's pretty much nothing available that can match their performance.

 

[The Planner]

Can always run through to International, would imagine with 5 platforms that could be a possibility?

Nope. Shoehorning anything extra down there is nigh on impossible.

 

[tetudo boy]

CrossCountry could use some to increase capacity, but I don't know what loco could be used for them. Maybe some Class 67's if they are available and compatible?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Class 90, 140mph? Are you thinking of 91s?

Yes I was, why did I type 90s? You all knew what I meant, but you've all brought up a decent argument for acceleration but not because its a crappy idea (I'll take that as a sort of win)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen some suggestions on this forum...

Crosscountry splitting their services for the sake of using electrics sounds like a rather bizarre way to tackle things. If anyone was really dead set on using these Mark 4s the most sensible thing would be a diesel or bi-mode loco haul

I think the reason this is seriously being considered (and I don't think I'd put something published in Modern Railways on the same level as suggestions on here, though it's amazing how often suggestions on here get rubbished then come true) is that Arriva already lease them and may well have no get-out clause, so if they're paying for them and XC needs capacity they might as well use them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2020 ==

CrossCountry could use some to increase capacity, but I don't know what loco could be used for them. Maybe some Class 67's if they are available and compatible?

XC are proposing to run them between Manchester and Birmingham using Class 90s, as it's all wired.

 

[tetudo boy]

XC are proposing to run them between Manchester and Birmingham using Class 90s, as it's all wired.

Ooh! Seem's interesting. They could replace the Liverpool to Birmingham service because LNWR is interested in running services to Manchester instead.

 

[greatvoyager]

Won’t XC need DfT support to do this?

 

[DB]

CrossCountry could use some to increase capacity, but I don't know what loco could be used for them. Maybe some Class 67's if they are available and compatible?

67s aren't compatible as things stand - could be done, but would require work to both locos and stock.

There probably are enough - DB have a number stored. However, their acceleration is not good so they are not ideal for busy routes. They wouldn't be able to keep to Voyager timings.

 

[Domh245]

I think the reason this is seriously being considered is that Arriva already lease them and may well have no get-out clause, so if they're paying for them and XC needs capacity they might as well use them.

Beware the sunk cost fallacy. They've got the carriages which they've got to pay for, but that doesn't mean it's worth then spending additional on locos, staff, etc. Particularly in these times when there's not going to be any additional revenue for it, and the DfT would seem reluctant to pay for anything they've not asked for

 

[Bletchleyite]

Beware the sunk cost fallacy. They've got the carriages which they've got to pay for, but that doesn't mean it's worth then spending additional on locos, staff, etc. Particularly in these times when there's not going to be any additional revenue for it, and the DfT would seem reluctant to pay for anything they've not asked for

It seems DaFT have asked them to increase capacity, though, as they have (also according to the same article) leased 2 additional HST power cars so they can add another HST diagram (presumably on a day when the existing ones would be being maintained, so there'd be a set of coaches sitting around unused).

 

[DB]

It seems DaFT have asked them to increase capacity, though, as they have (also according to the same article) leased 2 additional HST power cars so they can add another HST diagram.

Those two power cars are effectively maintenance spares - they have up until now had ten power cars for five sets, which is not sufficient (there were no others available at the time when they acquired their HSTs).

If they are going back to running four out of five sets, that's only what they were doing anyway back in the earlier years.

 

[Domh245]

It seems DaFT have asked them to increase capacity, though, as they have (also according to the same article) leased 2 additional HST power cars so they can add another HST diagram (presumably on a day when the existing ones would be being maintained, so there'd be a set of coaches sitting around unused).

They may have asked them to increase capacity, but they'll only agree to pay for the certain capacity and method of implementation they've agreed (the additional power cars). It's not impossible that Arriva said to the DfT as part of the latest (and recently announced) negotiations "hey, we've got these Mk4s", but they'd have been shouting about tens of thousands of extra seats if these had been included. The negotiations could still be ongoing and something that'll get triggered under certain conditions, but I'm doubtful

 

[swt_passenger]

Ooh! Seem's interesting. They could replace the Liverpool to Birmingham service because LNWR is interested in running services to Manchester instead.

Are LNWR really wanting to do that? Or has it been suggested so many times by forum members it’s assumed a life of its own? But as others have already mentioned in their replies, it’s been reported as Manchester anyway.

It seems DaFT have asked them to increase capacity, though, as they have (also according to the same article) leased 2 additional HST power cars so they can add another HST diagram (presumably on a day when the existing ones would be being maintained, so there'd be a set of coaches sitting around unused).

Wasn‘t the future additional HST diagramming, (to be achieved with the extra power cars), already announced by DfT in early 2020 anyway, so that bit is just confirming something already known?

It was covered in all the mags back when the extra XC 170 centre cars was in the headlines...

 

[The Planner]

Are LNWR really wanting to do that? Or has it been suggested so many times by forum members it’s assumed a life of its own? But as others have already mentioned in their replies, it’s been reported as Manchester anyway.

It has died off, but Manchester Airport was a serious proposal.

 

[43096]

Those two power cars are effectively maintenance spares - they have up until now had ten power cars for five sets, which is not sufficient (there were no others available at the time when they acquired their HSTs).

If they are going back to running four out of five sets, that's only what they were doing anyway back in the earlier years.

It was sufficient way back when XC first started the franchise as 4 from 5 sets were diagrammed daily. However, they’re another 10 years older and are maintained by Laira now.

 

[DB]

It was sufficient way back when XC first started the franchise as 4 from 5 sets were diagrammed daily. However, they’re another 10 years older and are maintained by Laira now.

It wasn't really - tended to result in Voyager substitutions reasonably often.

 

[Richard Scott]

Nope. Shoehorning anything extra down there is nigh on impossible.

Ok, kicked that one into touch then!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Ok, kicked that one into touch then!

Unless of course WMT are indeed withdrawing one path which I believe is planned north of Northampton?

 

[The Planner]

Unless of course WMT are indeed withdrawing one path which I believe is planned north of Northampton?

They have binned one south of Northampton, not aware of them getting rid north of there. Even then I don't believe that is permanent.

 

[chorx18]

Would love to see the loco swap reinstated at New Street but don't think that's likely to happen!

 

[cjmillsnun]

That was talked about years ago, and clearly not viable as it wasn't progressed. There are significant problems with incompatible electrical systems.

The electrical systems aren’t a big issue as static converters could be fitted in the HST PCs could easily do the voltage conversion. The issue is that the Mk4s are out of gauge. There was an excellent post on this forum some time back about it.

 

[rebmcr]

Crosscountry splitting their services for the sake of using electrics sounds like a rather bizarre way to tackle things. If anyone was really dead set on using these Mark 4s the most sensible thing would be a diesel or bi-mode loco haul

XC are proposing to run them between Manchester and Birmingham using Class 90s, as it's all wired.

I wonder if any combination of locos could offer the capability of a "push-push" configuration, with a Class 90 at one end and a diesel at the other, powered by either alone, and controllable from each end?

 

[DB]

I wonder if any combination of locos could offer the capability of a "push-push" configuration, with a Class 90 at one end and a diesel at the other, powered by either alone, and controllable from each end?

Not without work, and the only diesels which are likely to be available are 67s, which have poor acceleration.

 

[Energy]

Not without work, and the only diesels which are likely to be available are 67s, which have poor acceleration.

It also has to be cheaper than new build stock, once the work which needs doing is more than changing the seat covers, carpets, interior branding, livery and possibly (but not needed) changing of seats, it is getting towards the same price as just some new Hitachi units, I would imagine the work needed to make 90s and 67s work together with mk4s at the same time would be more than the leasing cost of new Hitachis.

 

[DB]

It also has to be cheaper than new build stock, once the work which needs doing is more than changing the seat covers, carpets, interior branding, livery and possibly (but not needed) changing of seats, it is getting towards the same price as just some new Hitachi units, I would imagine the work needed to make 90s and 67s work together with mk4s at the same time would be more than the leasing cost of new Hitachis.

It would almost certainly be cheaper to use Mk4s - but would result in a train with crap acceleration (on diesel, anyway).

Mk4s might be OK as as short-term stopgap (if used only with electric locos), but aren't really a long-term solution for XC.

It remains to be seen whether it actually happens, of course!

 

[Ianno87]

Musing on the proposal for XC to use the Mk 4 sets...

Given a 90 minute journey time, 4 sets would neatly cover a standalone Piccadilly-New Street service, albeit needing a Voyager as a spare. Plus something of a rework to the timetable.

 

[43096]

The electrical systems aren’t a big issue as static converters could be fitted in the HST PCs could easily do the voltage conversion. The issue is that the Mk4s are out of gauge. There was an excellent post on this forum some time back about it.

The design for the electrical system was done, as I understand it - the plan was to put the static converters at the end of the TOE, which makes the cost significantly less as there'd be (roughly) half the number of vehicles to convert.

 

[73128]

That's unworkable as there isn't enough platform capacity at Birmingham New Street.

they could reverse at International (perhaps another diagram).

 

[Ianno87]

they could reverse at International (perhaps another diagram).

New St capacity might depend on how much of the current timetable ends up thrown in the air post-Covid, if XC ends up going through a fundamental rethink. Away from XC, the CrossCity reduction to 4tph looks like a permanent change - hitherto unthinkable. Not much may be off the table (said speculatively).

 

[CW2]

Having trawled through my stock of used fag-packet calculators, I'd suggest the way to use 90s + Mk 4 stock on Manchester - Birmingham would indeed be to split the Manchester - West of England service in two.
Something like:

Manchester Piccadilly depart 07:58 (minimum headway behind xx:55 Euston)
New Street arrive 09:28
New Street depart 09:38
Manchester Piccadilly arrive 11:10

connecting at New Street into / out of

Ex West of England arrive 09:25
To West of England depart 09:42
(West of England to / from New Street timings unaltered)

Some tweaking of the Manchester Stoke all-stations local would be needed to get the xx:58 Picc - New Street through Stoke without delay.
I haven't attempted to prove these paths in detail - I'm sure somebody with access to the necessary train planning software will be along shortly to point out where I've gone wrong!
On the surface though, this looks doable.
Incidentally I don't agree with the narrative that class 90s are especially sluggish. Given the size of train we're discussing here, I suspect they would be quite sprightly. They would lose time on the Stafford - Wolverhampton section which is 125 mph, but only maybe a minute.