Will we see mass protests against authoritarianism and Covid19 restrictions?

[DB]

Hancock admitted to Parliament that a suppression, not elimination, strategy was being followed - and then approved the Council request in the North East for a tighter lockdown! To be fair I do agree that there is no sense in having guidance - it should be law or nothing, because people just ignore guidance - but it should not be Councils deciding this, it should be based on fixed, national criteria e.g. cases per 100K, with a figure at which measures kick in (and those measures fixed), and a figure at which they are released again.

And those criteria should be debated in parliament, and have a clear, measureable purpose in bringing about the end of this situation. And anyone uttering meaningless tosh like 'beat the virus' should immediately be told to explain what they mean.

We need an end of the misuse of emergency legislation to impose measures which have no clear purpose other than to be seen to be doing something, like the pointless rule on pubs closing at 10 to give the most recent example.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Hancock admitted to Parliament that a suppression, not elimination, strategy was being followed - and then approved the Council request in the North East for a tighter lockdown!

Ah yes, where everything is on an improving trend, or so David Paton has analysed:

Latest data in the NE shows: NHS triage data down 23% in a week. Increase in +ve tests slowing. Hospitalisations (NE & Yorks) stabilising. Deaths averaging about 3 per day (whole of NE & Yorks).

 

[yorkie]

Wasn't sure where was best to post a link to this article,...

Had a quick skim read and looks a good article to me (just a reminder to anyone referring to articles or other external content, please don't forget to add a quote as well as a link; I've amended this post to include a quote).

 

[bramling]

I think the chancellor is starting to see yhe mood change in this country. Sooner or later something is going to give

Being the person who has run up a bill stretching into hundreds of billions of pounds may have focussed the mind just a bit!

I get the feeling Boris delegates and decentralises everything onto his ministers, I wonder how much handle he actually has on the economic aspects to this.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I would go if my health would allow, but I am afraid that all nut jobs are getting in the way of real protesters campaigning. for a return to our rightful.freedoms.

But if enough of us that feel strongly and who aren’t nut jobs attend, the numbers will swell and the government will see that sane, rational voters have had a belly full of our freedoms being eroded.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2020 ==

I must admit I’m getting close to the point where I’m well up for some civil disobedience.

Boris boils my blood just by appearing, and Hancock is no better.

I’m not necessarily sure protests are the right mechanism though. A mass ignoring of restrictions would probably work just as well. Even better would be a big load of key workers downing tools, but that’s probably not viable unfortunately.

Well the Royal Mail and their trade union, the CWU, are still at an impasse, even after controversial CEO Rico Back was forced out. So when is a good time to have a ballot/strike? When parcel volumes are already at Christmas levels and a forecast 40% increase in parcels is predicted...?

 

[PTR 444]

With new virus cases hitting an all time high and a possibility of harsher lockdown restrictions amidst a looming recession and increasing likelihood of a no deal Brexit, do you think that this winter could become the Winter of Discontent 2.0? I can’t help but envisage mass protests and strikes on a similar scale to those seen during the winter of 1978/79, not to mention that it was one of the coldest winters on record. Last winter was one of the wettest on record and with climate change now a reality, one can expect some similarly disruptive weather this season!

 

[Carlisle]

Last winter was one of the wettest on record

As was the last full day, for a sizeable part of the UK

 

[brad465]

With new virus cases hitting an all time high and a possibility of harsher lockdown restrictions amidst a looming recession and increasing likelihood of a no deal Brexit, do you think that this winter could become the Winter of Discontent 2.0? I can’t help but envisage mass protests and strikes on a similar scale to those seen during the winter of 1978/79, not to mention that it was one of the coldest winters on record. Last winter was one of the wettest on record and with climate change now a reality, one can expect some similarly disruptive weather this season!

As was the last full day, for a sizeable part of the UK

I work in Water resources and also play a minor role in flood incident response: this weekend's wet weather was significant, but because the ground was very dry from the summer, impacts in the SE have generally been minor. However this will have significantly wet the ground and as we head towards winter, so this will make flooding a bigger problem if unsettled weather continues. If this is the case, Covid will be least of anyone's problems if they're directly affected by it (not to mention trying to socially distance any evacuations/rescues).

 

[C J Snarzell]

I've said previously, if this nonscene goes on and BJ enforces a second full national lockdown then we are bound to see riots like the ones of 1981 and 2011.

As with those particular riots - it was usually one incident that kicked it all off. The 2011 riots were caused by Mark Duggan's death with police in London. All it would take is for cops to turn up at a house party in a hostile suburb and start ejecting occupants leading to an angry stand off with the community.

There was also the Poll Tax riots of 1990 which started off as a protest but descended into a full blown riot because people were just fueled by anger. Same situation here - people are getting angry and fed up of this now. Enough is enough.

CJ

 

[Skimpot flyer]

With new virus cases hitting an all time high and a possibility of harsher lockdown restrictions amidst a looming recession and increasing likelihood of a no deal Brexit, do you think that this winter could become the Winter of Discontent 2.0? I can’t help but envisage mass protests and strikes on a similar scale to those seen during the winter of 1978/79, not to mention that it was one of the coldest winters on record. Last winter was one of the wettest on record and with climate change now a reality, one can expect some similarly disruptive weather this season!

Just straying off-topic, did anyone see Spitting Image’s long-range weather forecast ?

 

[DB]

With new virus cases hitting an all time high and a possibility of harsher lockdown restrictions amidst a looming recession and increasing likelihood of a no deal Brexit, do you think that this winter could become the Winter of Discontent 2.0? I can’t help but envisage mass protests and strikes on a similar scale to those seen during the winter of 1978/79, not to mention that it was one of the coldest winters on record. Last winter was one of the wettest on record and with climate change now a reality, one can expect some similarly disruptive weather this season!

It's highly unlikely to be an all time high - at the time when it was highest there was virtually no testing unless ill enough to go to hospital.

 

[jtuk]

With new virus cases hitting an all time high

No they haven't, and the enormous majority cannot accurately be described as "cases". When you're ill it's a case.

 

[brad465]

I forgot to mention Shapps - the slightly dopey excitable puppy dog who seems to now enjoy hosting the quarantine bingo once a week, with ever increasing stakes.

Who knows what’s going to happen next. I have no idea to be honest. One way or other I reckon there will probably be a high-profile mask incident soon, perhaps someone getting killed as part of a mask dispute. If that happens it’s on Johnson’s head.

I don't know about a high profile mask incident, but this concerning story is at least heading in that direction:

Shop worker battered with knuckleduster after asking customer to wear face mask

Ian Robson, 48, was dragged over the counter and punched in the head and face with the fearsome weapon at the Nisa shop in Gateshead.

metro.co.uk

A shop worker was attacked with a knuckle-duster after asking a customer to wear a face mask. Ian Robson, 48, was dragged over the counter and punched in the head and face with the fearsome weapon at the Nisa shop in Gateshead. Minutes earlier he had politely reminded a customer who came into the shop without a face-covering that they were now mandatory as part of measures to stop the spread of coronavirus. CCTV then showed the thug storming back into the shop with his face hidden by a scarf and attacking Ian.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I don't know about a high profile mask incident, but this concerning story is at least heading in that direction:

Shop worker battered with knuckleduster after asking customer to wear face mask

Ian Robson, 48, was dragged over the counter and punched in the head and face with the fearsome weapon at the Nisa shop in Gateshead.

metro.co.uk

Shops won’t be closed by the police if someone isn’t wearing a mask so why do they feel the necessity to do this?

I hope he’s ok obviously

 

[island]

Shops won’t be closed by the police if someone isn’t wearing a mask so why do they feel the necessity to do this?

I hope he’s ok obviously

Shops are legally obliged to tell everyone entering without a face covering that they must put one on if there is not a legally compliant notice at every entrance. (In each case exemptions and reasonable excuses are to be mentioned.) Failure to do either of these is an offence and shop managers and staff can be personally fined up to £10,000, with the same fine for the shop itself. (However, this was not in effect at the time of this particular incident.)

(See section 2A of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Obligations of Undertakings) (England) Regulations 2020)

 

[takno]

Shops are legally obliged to tell everyone entering without a face covering that they must put one on if there is not a legally compliant notice at every entrance. (In each case exemptions and reasonable excuses are to be mentioned.) Failure to do either of these is an offence and shop managers and staff can be personally fined up to £10,000, with the same fine for the shop itself. (However, this was not in effect at the time of this particular incident.)

(See section 2A of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Obligations of Undertakings) (England) Regulations 2020)

This "up to 10k" thing is wearing pretty thin. There aren't a lot of fines being issued anyway, in most they aren't being paid and will end up written off to save the court service, and even if you do get fined in most cases you have to repeat the offence 6 or 7 times to get a fine that large.

Clearly the intent of the legislation is to get people to put the signs up, so why the silly threats and confusing advice?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Shops are legally obliged to tell everyone entering without a face covering that they must put one on if there is not a legally compliant notice at every entrance. (In each case exemptions and reasonable excuses are to be mentioned.) Failure to do either of these is an offence and shop managers and staff can be personally fined up to £10,000, with the same fine for the shop itself. (However, this was not in effect at the time of this particular incident.)

(See section 2A of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Obligations of Undertakings) (England) Regulations 2020)

I find it difficult to believe someone would rather ask every single person that enters rather than just put a sign up?

Laws of probability say there was a sign and the ask was superfluous

 

[C J Snarzell]

My understanding of face masks in public places is that if people have genuine medical conditions that make it difficult to wear one, then they have to prove it - maybe a doctor's note. It's simply common sense and courtesy.

CJ

 

[VauxhallandI]

My understanding of face masks in public places is that if people have genuine medical conditions that make it difficult to wear one, then they have to prove it - maybe a doctor's note. It's simply common sense and courtesy.

CJ

Your understanding would be completely and utterly wrong then. Have you tried reading the law?

 

[takno]

My understanding of face masks in public places is that if people have genuine medical conditions that make it difficult to wear one, then they have to prove it - maybe a doctor's note. It's simply common sense and courtesy.

You might have to tell doctors that then since they don't and won't issue such notes. Frankly the details of any exemption are none of anybody's business anyway and it's just common courtesy not to ask

 

[Yew]

Last time I checked, this wasn't the mask thread...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've said previously, if this nonscene goes on and BJ enforces a second full national lockdown then we are bound to see riots like the ones of 1981 and 2011.

As with those particular riots - it was usually one incident that kicked it all off. The 2011 riots were caused by Mark Duggan's death with police in London. All it would take is for cops to turn up at a house party in a hostile suburb and start ejecting occupants leading to an angry stand off with the community.

There was also the Poll Tax riots of 1990 which started off as a protest but descended into a full blown riot because people were just fueled by anger. Same situation here - people are getting angry and fed up of this now. Enough is enough.

CJ

The Poll Tax riots were one disturbance on 31st March 1990. The 1981 and 2011 riots took place in summer and that's quite important. People don't like to riot in bad weather!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I expect the majority of fines are going to people who fail the attitude test.

That's basically, after a bit of a "false start", how the Police have been told to deal with non-extreme cases (i.e. not house parties of 50-odd) - ask them to comply (e.g. to put a mask on or disperse a large group), and if they do leave it at that, but if they're awkward impose the fine.

 

[C J Snarzell]

The Poll Tax riots were one disturbance on 31st March 1990. The 1981 and 2011 riots took place in summer and that's quite important. People don't like to riot in bad weather!

If people are throwing enough petrol bombs and lighting fires, then running at/from the police I don't think they are likely to get cold from the Winter weather.

CJ

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If people are throwing enough petrol bombs and lighting fires, then running at/from the police I don't think they are likely to get cold from the Winter weather.

CJ

Sorry - that's the history of the examples you quoted. Even if you want to go back to the Peasants Revolt or Peterloo, they were in the summer!!

 

[Bantamzen]

The Poll Tax riots were one disturbance on 31st March 1990. The 1981 and 2011 riots took place in summer and that's quite important. People don't like to riot in bad weather!

"People don't like to riot in bad weather"....???? You'll be telling us that wars only ever happen in warm weather next.

Whilst it is true that the mercifully few riots in this country have generally been in summer, this isn't because rioters looked out of the window and thought that it looked like a nice day to go rioting. Living in the epicentre of of the 2001 Bradford riots, I can tell you with absolutely certainty that tensions in the city had been seething for months, and that violence was on the cards for a long time. Indeed one of the first flashpoints had involved the, let's just call them very far right regulars in a pub literally a few hundred metres from my door constantly getting into to scuffles with young Asian lads. Tensions had been on the rise for a very long time, and the riots could have just as easily kicked off over the winter. Everyone in the area knew it, and feared it.

Weather has nothing to do with it, windows break just as easily in December, fires can be set in January, the key to a riot starting is usually a build up of tension between ethnic groups, groups of people feeling increasingly discriminated against, or people simply backed into corners through no fault of their own. Any one of these, or a combination of all could lead to a flashpoint at any time over the coming months if the government continues to pursue it's erratic, and damaging path.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

"People don't like to riot in bad weather"....???? You'll be telling us that wars only ever happen in warm weather next.

Whilst it is true that the mercifully few riots in this country have generally been in summer, this isn't because rioters looked out of the window and thought that it looked like a nice day to go rioting. Living in the epicentre of of the 2001 Bradford riots, I can tell you with absolutely certainty that tensions in the city had been seething for months, and that violence was on the cards for a long time. Indeed one of the first flashpoints had involved the, let's just call them very far right regulars in a pub literally a few hundred metres from my door constantly getting into to scuffles with young Asian lads. Tensions had been on the rise for a very long time, and the riots could have just as easily kicked off over the winter. Everyone in the area knew it, and feared it.

Weather has nothing to do with it, windows break just as easily in December, fires can be set in January, the key to a riot starting is usually a build up of tension between ethnic groups, groups of people feeling increasingly discriminated against, or people simply backed into corners through no fault of their own. Any one of these, or a combination of all could lead to a flashpoint at any time over the coming months if the government continues to pursue it's erratic, and damaging path.

I'm sorry to break this to you but weather DOES have an impact as to the number of people who go out onto the streets. You might notice that on a sunny day, you see more people out and about. Last weekend when the weather was lousy, fewer people out and about. That's sort of an accepted norm.

The underlying reasons behind riots often go back years with feelings of injustice etc based on the approach of policing, jobs, standard and provision of housing though with a particular ignition source. In Tottenham, it was the death of Mark Duggan, whereas in Broadwater Farm, it was the death of Cynthia Jarrett.

The correlation between hot weather and civil unrest was researched in the 1970s after the 1967 riots in Detroit. So sorry to disappoint you - bad weather doesn't preclude social unrest but it most certainly is a factor behind the incidence and severity.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm sorry to break this to you but weather DOES have an impact as to the number of people who go out onto the streets. You might notice that on a sunny day, you see more people out and about. Last weekend when the weather was lousy, fewer people out and about. That's sort of an accepted norm.

The underlying reasons behind riots often go back years with feelings of injustice etc based on the approach of policing, jobs, standard and provision of housing though with a particular ignition source. In Tottenham, it was the death of Mark Duggan, whereas in Broadwater Farm, it was the death of Cynthia Jarrett.

The correlation between hot weather and civil unrest was researched in the 1970s after the 1967 riots in Detroit. So sorry to disappoint you - bad weather doesn't preclude social unrest but it most certainly is a factor behind the incidence and severity.

Did you read what I wrote earlier? Because as I said in 2001 there were lots of scuffles between the eventual instigators of the riots in the months leading up to the actual riot, any one of which could have been the spark. I know, I was living right in the middle of it. Academics sitting in universities can correlate all they like, being on the ground right at the heart of where it starts, working, living and socialising with others on the ground gives far more insight than they could ever dream of. Riot-like behaviour on streets happens all year round, its only the really big ones that get the attention of the wider media.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Did you read what I wrote earlier? Because as I said in 2001 there were lots of scuffles between the eventual instigators of the riots in the months leading up to the actual riot, any one of which could have been the spark. I know, I was living right in the middle of it. Academics sitting in universities can correlate all they like, being on the ground right at the heart of where it starts, working, living and socialising with others on the ground gives far more insight than they could ever dream of. Riot-like behaviour on streets happens all year round, its only the really big ones that get the attention of the wider media.

Yes, I did read what you wrote. One person's experience vs. a large body of published research. Even the police refer to it as "riot weather"

UK crime stats https://www.ukcrimestats.com/National_Picture/ happen to show that anti-social behaviour and public order offences increase during the summer months. More people are out and about. Conversely, crimes like burglary, vehicle crime and robbery decline when there are longer days.

 

[birchesgreen]

"People don't like to riot in bad weather"....???? You'll be telling us that wars only ever happen in warm weather next.

That used to be the case funnily enough, in the olden days before professional armies and when most soldiers were farmers, wars were often fought taking the growing season into account... but anyway that's not really relevant to this modern day plague