NR suggestions for upgrading Northallerton station/junctions

[Meerkat]

In this document From Network Rail
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...Fenton-to-Newcastle-Strategic-Advice-2020.pdf
they suggest that the only way to provide for all future service aspirations is to extend the slow lines through the station, with new platforms on the outside, and add a Hitchin like flyover/dive under to take the down Middlesbrough line over/under the Darlington line and round the top of Northallerton.
Seems reasonable, if a long way round and very expensive, but why do they suggest keeping the current freight route through the level crossings (which they state cause loads of local issues) to hold freight trains? Can’t they stack up on the slow lines south of Northallerton - I assume all passenger trains are on the fasts as they are 125mph apart from the Middlesbrough TPEs, which could be if paths were really that tight.

ps Moderators - feel free to move to Speculation if you see fit, wasn’t sure whether it is speculation when it is NR doing it!

 

[Halish Railway]

Can’t they stack up on the slow lines south of Northallerton - I assume all passenger trains are on the fasts as they are 125mph apart from the Middlesbrough TPEs, which could be if paths were really that tight.

I doubt that stacking would be possible as it is impossible to get from Thirsk’s platforms to Northallerton on the fast lines as the appropriate track work doesn’t exist. Also, the slow lines are useful for trains on the fast line to overtake trains on the slow line - AFAIK, one of the Grand Central Sunderland to Kings Cross services gets overtaken by the Highland Chieften, and I’ve also seen it being overtaken by an Edinburgh to Liverpool service, though I digress.

 

[swt_passenger]

In this document From Network Rail
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...Fenton-to-Newcastle-Strategic-Advice-2020.pdf
they suggest that the only way to provide for all future service aspirations is to extend the slow lines through the station, with new platforms on the outside, and add a Hitchin like flyover/dive under to take the down Middlesbrough line over/under the Darlington line and round the top of Northallerton.
Seems reasonable, if a long way round and very expensive, but why do they suggest keeping the current freight route through the level crossings (which they state cause loads of local issues) to hold freight trains? Can’t they stack up on the slow lines south of Northallerton - I assume all passenger trains are on the fasts as they are 125mph apart from the Middlesbrough TPEs, which could be if paths were really that tight.

ps Moderators - feel free to move to Speculation if you see fit, wasn’t sure whether it is speculation when it is NR doing it!

This (ie the layout) has been discussed at length already, in a speculation thread back in June or so:

Newcastle-York rail investment options: what are your thoughts?

I think there is some truth in this - both a strength and weakness of the Leamside is that it could do so many things (additional express capacity, freight, local stoppers, T+W Metro extension) that no one stakeholder group has gone for it (apart from the aborted attempt to re-open it c2000)...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Meerkat]

This (ie the layout) has been discussed at length already, in a speculation thread back in June or so:

Newcastle-York rail investment options: what are your thoughts?

I think there is some truth in this - both a strength and weakness of the Leamside is that it could do so many things (additional express capacity, freight, local stoppers, T+W Metro extension) that no one stakeholder group has gone for it (apart from the aborted attempt to re-open it c2000)...

www.railforums.co.uk

Ah! So there is.....and I have got it on watch....muppetry!

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah! So there is.....and I have got it on watch....muppetry!

It does make things difficult to find, as it’s a proper NR source you’ve found I’d have it in infrastructure if it was up to me. Speculation is supposed to be for forum members ideas, AFAICT...

 

[Class 170101]

Darlington layout looks a bit short sighted. Bishops Auckland services must use platforms 1 and 4 and cannot cross in parallel towards Saltburn. You would have thought that making it possible for parallel moves on this route would be important such as to reduce conflicts and the amount of time the ECML is 'blocked' for moves off the secondary route.

 

[edwin_m]

Darlington layout looks a bit short sighted. Bishops Auckland services must use platforms 1 and 4 and cannot cross in parallel towards Saltburn. You would have thought that making it possible for parallel moves on this route would be important such as to reduce conflicts and the amount of time the ECML is 'blocked' for moves off the secondary route.

There's been a plan around for some time to build some platforms on the east side of the main lines, including a bay for Saltburn terminators.

 

[John Webb]

There is no mention at all for Northallerton of any provision for Wensleydale Railway services that I could see. Is this a positive exclusion from a 'cross-platform' exchange by NR or simply ignoring something that is a possibility but a distant one?

 

[Ianno87]

There is no mention at all for Northallerton of any provision for Wensleydale Railway services that I could see. Is this a positive exclusion from a 'cross-platform' exchange by NR or simply ignoring something that is a possibility but a distant one?

How many £millions and land take do you think it's acceptable to pile on the cost of an already major scheme to permit such a thing?

 

[John Webb]

How many £millions and land take do you think it's acceptable to pile on the cost of an already major scheme to permit such a thing?

I was bearing in mind that at one time the Wensleydale line did run direct into Northallerton station, and that NR has been known to make passive provision for preserved lines to run into a station on the national network in past major works. It was the complete absence of any mention which prompted my previous post.
Recent mapping indicates the West-South curve off the Wensleydale Line remains unbuilt upon. But I don't know how much space to spare, if any, alongside the ECML remains to reach Northallerton station. If there isn't anywhere to run an additional line, then I accept it would be too much to expect the public purse to provide even a passive provision for future use.

 

[WAO]

Passive provision for terminating bays and passing loops at stations is not just for heritage lines. Railways are very long term undertakings and future demand a generation or two ahead is unknown. While freight sidings at minor stations and full marshalling yards are extremely unlikely ever to be needed, space alongside fast lines (or mains as we call them here on the GW - none of our trains are slow!) is reasonable. Compared to other railway contract excesses, consideration is justified.

WAO

 

[zwk500]

Bear in mind that the designs shown in that document are indicative designs of the layout of NR infrastructure. They are neither detailed nor Final designs. I suspect that NR would be more than happy to include some level of future proofing for the heritage railway to have a cross-platform interchange, if the financial numbers can be made to work.

 

[Meerkat]

Darlington layout looks a bit short sighted. Bishops Auckland services must use platforms 1 and 4 and cannot cross in parallel towards Saltburn. You would have thought that making it possible for parallel moves on this route would be important such as to reduce conflicts and the amount of time the ECML is 'blocked' for moves off the secondary route.

I got the impression that they were planning to split the Bishop Auckland to Saltburn service.

 

[Kingspanner]

They should split the BA to Saltburn service into BA-Darlington and Darlington-Saltburn.
Improved reliability and timekeeping on both branches, no paths to find across the busy ECML (which has constrained growth) and potential for heritage services to work in from the Bishop branch to Darlington.
Passengers will be walking the width of the extended station though to connect from one branch to the other...

 

[Class 170101]

I got the impression that they were planning to split the Bishop Auckland to Saltburn service.

They should split the BA to Saltburn service into BA-Darlington and Darlington-Saltburn.
Improved reliability and timekeeping on both branches, no paths to find across the busy ECML (which has constrained growth) and potential for heritage services to work in from the Bishop branch to Darlington.
Passengers will be walking the width of the extended station though to connect from one branch to the other...

Will probably require more units than today's through service though.

 

[wallan]

With the Cattle Market Site Vacant , an ideal time to redevelop the Station & surrounding area

 

[DarloRich]

With the Cattle Market Site Vacant , an ideal time to redevelop the Station & surrounding area

The cattle market is in the town centre at Applegarth.

There isnt much space down there. The dairy site has been built on for homes. There is only wharehouse place off Boroughbridge Road ( by the level crossing and the green space alongside county hall

 

[Mollman]

They should split the BA to Saltburn service into BA-Darlington and Darlington-Saltburn.
Improved reliability and timekeeping on both branches, no paths to find across the busy ECML (which has constrained growth) and potential for heritage services to work in from the Bishop branch to Darlington.
Passengers will be walking the width of the extended station though to connect from one branch to the other...

Probably allows the 3-car Hydrogen test trains to be used on the Saltburn service and a sprinter on BA

 

[Darandio]

I doubt that stacking would be possible as it is impossible to get from Thirsk’s platforms to Northallerton on the fast lines as the appropriate track work doesn’t exist.

What exactly do you mean here? Heading north from Thirsk they can immediately join the down fast at the crossover. Or are you talking about something else?

 

[wallan]

The cattle market is in the town centre at Applegarth.

There isnt much space down there. The dairy site has been built on for homes. There is only wharehouse place off Boroughbridge Road ( by the level crossing and the green space alongside county hall

Sorry i ment the Cattle Market at Darlington

 

[DarloRich]

Sorry i ment the Cattle Market at Darlington

that will go for houses. it is also in the wrong place to be any use for station alterations.

 

[edwin_m]

What exactly do you mean here? Heading north from Thirsk they can immediately join the down fast at the crossover. Or are you talking about something else?

Correct. The corresponding crossover on the Up side was removed in the York re-signaling circa 1990, but the one on the Down side is still there. It's probably more to allow a slower train heading toward Darlington to wait for a fast one to overtakes it though. Under the current layout a freight towards Teesside can be held on the Longlands loop (the connecting line that passes through at lower level) if a passenger train needs to go ahead of it via the platforms. But under NR's proposed layout the Longlands Loop might be lifted (it's shown as possibly retained for performance benefits), in which case such a train would need to sit on the Down Slow south of Northallerton instead.

 

[lineclear]

Under the current layout a freight towards Teesside can be held on the Longlands loop (the connecting line that passes through at lower level) if a passenger train needs to go ahead of it via the platforms.

Unfortunately not. The freight train would wait at Longlands, or Thirsk if the passenger train is booked on the slow.

 

[edwin_m]

Unfortunately not. The freight train would wait at Longlands, or Thirsk if the passenger train is booked on the slow.

By Longlands do you mean on the Down Slow approaching Longlands Junction? Isn't there anywhere it can wait between there and the East junction?

 

[lineclear]

By Longlands do you mean on the Down Slow approaching Longlands Junction? Isn't there anywhere it can wait between there and the East junction?

I think I might have had a brain fart! It can wait between Longlands and the level crossings.