Caledonian Sleeper

[6Z09]

I would have thought that in the evening there would be no difficulty in maintaining 2m distancing at any station used by CS

Aye, more likely to die of the cold waiting at Queen Street Low level than breaching social distancing rules.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would have thought that in the evening there would be no difficulty in maintaining 2m distancing at any station used by CS

Euston?

 

[BRX]

For me, getting from my front door in south london to inverness station, riskiest bit was probably the 20 mins on a fairly empty late evening thameslink train. Who knows how that compares to a few meal/toilet/fuel stops on a 10-12hr car journey. Many people would want to break that car journey overnight too, which means more contact possibilities. Anyway - I don't have a car, so that's that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2020 ==

Euston?

Pretty quiet at 8 or 9pm.

 

[Bald Rick]

For me, getting from my front door in south london to inverness station, riskiest bit was probably the 20 mins on a fairly empty late evening thameslink train. Who knows how that compares to a few meal/toilet/fuel stops on a 10-12hr car journey. Many people would want to break that car journey overnight too, which means more contact possibilities. Anyway - I don't have a car, so that's that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2020 ==


Pretty quiet at 8 or 9pm.

Not in the sleeper queue!

 

[philthetube]

you don't have to queue, just stand back and walk up as the queue disappears.

 

[peteb]

Not in the sleeper queue!

My drive from Aviemore (near Inverness) to Birmingham area in August required stops at Dunkeld, Abington, Tebay and Knutsford. Masks worn in all service areas, numbers varied (Tebay busiest), toilets the most unknown factor, some having narrow access corridors. A sleeper journey from Aviemore to Crewe would have entailed use of shared corridors and toilets, but no masks in cabin as in a private car. The thing about the sleeper is you dont need to find food 3 times on the journey, nor to fill up with petrol, so I guess CS slightly less risky point to point. Car offers advantage of door to door however whereas sleeper would require extra trains buses or taxi so overall I'd say it was a dead heat in terms of risk.

 

[FQTV]

Euston?

Admittedly experience from last month, but for two separate Northbound Sleeper departures, Euston was very quiet on both occasions.

In fact the only thing of note was, on one of the occasions, watching a chap present himself to the British Transport Police to claim asylum.

 

[BRX]

My drive from Aviemore (near Inverness) to Birmingham area in August required stops at Dunkeld, Abington, Tebay and Knutsford. Masks worn in all service areas, numbers varied (Tebay busiest), toilets the most unknown factor, some having narrow access corridors. A sleeper journey from Aviemore to Crewe would have entailed use of shared corridors and toilets, but no masks in cabin as in a private car. The thing about the sleeper is you dont need to find food 3 times on the journey, nor to fill up with petrol, so I guess CS slightly less risky point to point. Car offers advantage of door to door however whereas sleeper would require extra trains buses or taxi so overall I'd say it was a dead heat in terms of risk.

The point is in any case... for anyone for whom driving is not an option, the sleeper offers a pretty low risk method of travelling quite a long distance. So, I would not be at all surprised if it becomes quite popular for however long it's going to be the case that there are not travel restrictions as such, but covid is in circulation and people are worried about it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Admittedly experience from last month, but for two separate Northbound Sleeper departures, Euston was very quiet on both occasions.

In fact the only thing of note was, on one of the occasions, watching a chap present himself to the British Transport Police to claim asylum.

Those poor Jocks will do anything to escape ....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2020 ==

My drive from Aviemore (near Inverness) to Birmingham area in August required stops at Dunkeld, Abington, Tebay and Knutsford.

My drive from Braemar to Stafford a few weeks back required stops at Lesmahagow. Tesco was empty. Paid at pump. I didn’t come within 3 metres of anyone.

Different people have different experiences.

 

[FQTV]

Those poor Jocks will do anything to escape ....

He said (in Arabic) that he’d come from Leeds ....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Different people have different experiences.

And different sized bladders!

 

[Huntergreed]

Tried the sleeper:

Interior felt very worn out already, cleanliness wasn’t great (especially given COVID), and I struggled to sleep I found the bed was just a little too small to be comfortable.

The ride quality of the Mk5’s is frankly appalling, it’s bouncy, noisy, and difficult to get any meaningful sleep in. Thankfully I managed a few hours but certainly wasn’t a great kip. Think I’ll stick to Avanti West Coast and a Hotel next time.

 

[47271]

Tried the sleeper:

Interior felt very worn out already, cleanliness wasn’t great (especially given COVID), and I struggled to sleep I found the bed was just a little too small to be comfortable.

The ride quality of the Mk5’s is frankly appalling, it’s bouncy, noisy, and difficult to get any meaningful sleep in. Thankfully I managed a few hours but certainly wasn’t a great kip. Think I’ll stick to AWC and a Hotel next time.

That all sounds about right, especially the worn interiors, poor cleaning and rough ride.

I can see that if the mk5s have a long term future then they're going to have to be refurbed to proper hard-wearing standards, not some tweedy tosh with spindly buttons and taps, and the knocking bogies are going to have to be sorted out.

As for the cleaning, this was a significant issue pre Covid. That they haven't sorted it now of all times is pretty poor.

 

[route101]

Tried the sleeper:

Interior felt very worn out already, cleanliness wasn’t great (especially given COVID), and I struggled to sleep I found the bed was just a little too small to be comfortable.

The ride quality of the Mk5’s is frankly appalling, it’s bouncy, noisy, and difficult to get any meaningful sleep in. Thankfully I managed a few hours but certainly wasn’t a great kip. Think I’ll stick to AWC and a Hotel next time.

Only done the seated in new and berth in older stock. Too dear in the berths now. Its useful for getting to London at 7 am or 10 am the last time !

 

[BRX]

Tried the sleeper:

Interior felt very worn out already, cleanliness wasn’t great (especially given COVID), and I struggled to sleep I found the bed was just a little too small to be comfortable.

The ride quality of the Mk5’s is frankly appalling, it’s bouncy, noisy, and difficult to get any meaningful sleep in. Thankfully I managed a few hours but certainly wasn’t a great kip. Think I’ll stick to AWC and a Hotel next time.

Have you used night trains in other countries much?

 

[SlideintomyTMs]

The cleaning quality has been appalling forever on the sleeper, I remember one time booking on at Aberdeen and not a single bed was even made! Called control and they told us to make the beds ourselves. I wouldn’t trust the cleaners to wipe mud off there shoes let alone clean a whole train

 

[al78]

I'm thinking about a short trip to Scotland next summer using the sleeper. Having just done a quick check as to the price (trying a date in March) from London to Blair Atholl, it costs £215 one way for the cheapest berth, and I have to get from Horsham to London on top of that, so I think if I go I will be going by daytime train and using the Blair Castle campsite (I will likely sleep better in my tent anyway).

 

[paul1609]

Unless you have an aversion to flying I'd have thought Easyjet Gatwick to Edinburgh/ Glasgow would be a no brainer.

 

[alistairlees]

I'm thinking about a short trip to Scotland next summer using the sleeper. Having just done a quick check as to the price (trying a date in March) from London to Blair Atholl, it costs £215 one way for the cheapest berth, and I have to get from Horsham to London on top of that, so I think if I go I will be going by daytime train and using the Blair Castle campsite (I will likely sleep better in my tent anyway).

It's £145 for a Classic Room on almost all Sundays to Wednesdays northbound London to Blair Atholl in March 2021. Thursdays and Fridays are the busiest nights northbound and are £195 for most of those dates in March.

 

[tankmc]

I also tried the sleeper two weeks ago.

I hardly saw any staff or spoke to any staff. I was checked in on the platform then left to find our cabin and sort yourselves out. I was told when checking in that the club car could not use it because it was a "Staff bubble".

Breakfast the next day was placed in my cabin. Someone (didn't see them) opened the door, popped the bag in and closed the door. Sorry to say it was horrible. I don't understand how they can not provide hot drinks but can provide a hot roll. The muffin was like a dense tasteless sponge and the bacon roll was stone cold.

I found the interiors nice but not practical. Little details added up and it became annoying.

1. The beds are uncomfortable.
2. The ride quality is appalling. I could feel every kink and bump in the track. I hardly slept a wink.
3. The rooms are really hot! I tried to ask someone to turn the temperature down but didn't see a member of crew the whole journey.
4. The Button to turn on the reading light is so bright i could read using it.
5. light in the toilets don't turn off and light up the whole room through the gap under the door.
6. No space next to the sink to put a was bag, that soap dish is annoying and the water from the sink sprays everywhere except the actual sink.
7. Trays seem to have been removed.
8. The position of the ladder makes it awkward to get in and out of the bottom bunk.
9. Arriving into London we still had 15 minutes to get off the train. We were pulling our bags out of the cabin when someone came around and said the train was leaving immediately and we had to get off now. She got our bags left in the room and put them on the platform. Didn't even have time to sweep the room. Thank god we didn't leave anything. Pretty agressive tbh and not the best welcome to Euston.

Overall I enjoyed been on a sleeper but it needs improvement. It cost me £250. Is it worth it? Well, I guess if you are not paying for a London maybe but honestly I could get better sleep on a day train or coach than on the sleeper and pay a fraction of the price.

 

[al78]

Unless you have an aversion to flying I'd have thought Easyjet Gatwick to Edinburgh/ Glasgow would be a no brainer.

I try to avoid flying for environmental reasons.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2020 ==

It's £145 for a Classic Room on almost all Sundays to Wednesdays northbound London to Blair Atholl in March 2021. Thursdays and Fridays are the busiest nights northbound and are £195 for most of those dates in March.

That's useful to know, thanks. I looked at Thursday evening, maybe they are more expensive on Thursday and Friday evenings.

 

[Bald Rick]

I try to avoid flying for environmental reasons.

Fair enough - but probably best not to ask how much diesel the 2x73s will burn hauling 550tonnes of itself and train from Edinburgh to Inverness, compared to Jet A1 that a ~60tonne A320 will burn from Gatwick to Edinburgh.

 

[peteb]

Fair enough - but probably best not to ask how much diesel the 2x73s will burn hauling 550tonnes of itself and train from Edinburgh to Inverness, compared to Jet A1 that a ~60tonne A320 will burn from Gatwick to Edinburgh.

Anyone know how much more environmentally the 550 tonne train is than the smallish jet carrying, let's assume, the same number of passengers from London to Inverness? Let's guess at 50 passengers on the Inverness portion? Would that be about right? Complicated by the fact the train splits 2 ways or 3 if Aberdeen running! Just interested not trying to be faceacitious!

 

[al78]

Anyone know how much more environmentally the 550 tonne train is than the smallish jet carrying, let's assume, the same number of passengers from London to Inverness? Let's guess at 50 passengers on the Inverness portion? Would that be about right? Complicated by the fact the train splits 2 ways or 3 if Aberdeen running! Just interested not trying to be faceacitious!

Complicated by the fact the train is not just transporting 50 people from London to Inverness, it is transporting other people too and from intermediate stops, the plane doesn't. The good thing about trains is they can serve several different origins and destinations for little more fuel consumption than if the train went non-stop between termini. It is possible to do very rough calculations to work out whether accelerating to cruising speed or pushing air out of the way is the larger contribution to energy use.

Ch 20 Page 118: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air | David MacKay

www.withouthotair.com

 

[paul1609]

Anyone know how much more environmentally the 550 tonne train is than the smallish jet carrying, let's assume, the same number of passengers from London to Inverness? Let's guess at 50 passengers on the Inverness portion? Would that be about right? Complicated by the fact the train splits 2 ways or 3 if Aberdeen running! Just interested not trying to be faceacitious!

Problem is the smallish jet (in normal times) will most likely be carrying 3 times the passengers of the Inverness Portion of the Sleeper, I'm with Bald Rick the sleeper will be an absolute basket case environmentally.

 

[peteb]

Complicated by the fact the train is not just transporting 50 people from London to Inverness, it is transporting other people too and from intermediate stops, the plane doesn't. The good thing about trains is they can serve several different origins and destinations for little more fuel consumption than if the train went non-stop between termini. It is possible to do very rough calculations to work out whether accelerating to cruising speed or pushing air out of the way is the larger contribution to energy use.

Ch 20 Page 118: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air | David MacKay

www.withouthotair.com

Thanks for the reference

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2020 ==

Problem is the smallish jet (in normal times) will most likely be carrying 3 times the passengers of the Inverness Portion of the Sleeper, I'm with Bald Rick the sleeper will be an absolute basket case environmentally.

Interesting, I'm surprised but understand your logic

 

[Bald Rick]

Well I was being a little provocative. And as has been pointed out, it’s not a straightforward comparison.

However.... the sleeper is one of the few services in the country which has, largely, end to end flows (or nearly so) with few passengers joining at intermediate stations. To make things easy, we can assume that the electrically hauled part of the journey of the Highland sleeper has no carbon emissions, and therefore only consider the trip from Edinburgh to Inverness. What follows is very (very) back of fag packet.

I don’t have access to the figures, but I’d be surprised if the Inverness portion of the Highlander carries more than 80-90 people a night, on average. The 2 locos hauling it to/from Edinburgh will burn something like 400gals (educated guess) of diesel between them to do so, including that spent getting to and from the train and sat on it providing hotel power. That’s about 1500kg of diesel.

An A320neo flying Luton to Inverness with (typically) 170 passengers on board will burn about 3000kg of Jet A1, including that used for taxi-ing either end. Twice as much fuel, but for twice as many passengers, so (very) roughly the same.

 

[paul1609]

Well I was being a little provocative. And as has been pointed out, it’s not a straightforward comparison.

However.... the sleeper is one of the few services in the country which has, largely, end to end flows (or nearly so) with few passengers joining at intermediate stations. To make things easy, we can assume that the electrically hauled part of the journey of the Highland sleeper has no carbon emissions, and therefore only consider the trip from Edinburgh to Inverness. What follows is very (very) back of fag packet.

I don’t have access to the figures, but I’d be surprised if the Inverness portion of the Highlander carries more than 80-90 people a night, on average. The 2 locos hauling it to/from Edinburgh will burn something like 400gals (educated guess) of diesel between them to do so, including that spent getting to and from the train and sat on it providing hotel power. That’s about 1500kg of diesel.

An A320neo flying Luton to Inverness with (typically) 170 passengers on board will burn about 3000kg of Jet A1, including that used for taxi-ing either end. Twice as much fuel, but for twice as many passengers, so (very) roughly the same.

So presumably when there's insufficient renewable or nuclear electricity to meet all the demands that claims that they run on carbon free electricity the trains will be cancelled? Or is the sleeper running off moonlight pv? When I just randomly checked 59% of the uks electricity was being provided by ccgts mostly on gas imported from the middle East....

 

[Journeyman]

So presumably when there's insufficient renewable or nuclear electricity to meet all the demands that claims that they run on carbon free electricity the trains will be cancelled? Or is the sleeper running off moonlight pv? When I just randomly checked 59% of the uks electricity was being provided by ccgts mostly on gas imported from the middle East....

Rail traction power in the UK is 100% nuclear, and has been for some time. As an industrial customer, Network Rail buys its power from a single source in bulk, having signed a ten year contract with EDF in 2013. The power is deemed carbon neutral.

 

[Bald Rick]

When I just randomly checked 59% of the uks electricity was being provided by ccgts mostly on gas imported from the middle East....

It will be about half that in a couple of hours

Rail traction power in the UK is 100% nuclear, and has been for some time.

Well that’s debatable, and a whole other discussion.