GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Spread the virus now so it will do what it will do so people can enjoy Xmas.
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Should there be protests against another lockdown?
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Markdvdman
Member
I suppose the herd immunity is what is necessary. Cases are rising but deaths are NOT! Lockdowns DEVASTATE economies, community, mental health etc and blaming the youth is a disgrace! Merthyr is likely to go into local lockdown this week yet no deaths! I despise the govermnets for their abject misunderstanding of this all! The flu deaths every year did not need lockdowns. As tragic as it is, the flu jab is very hit and miss so what says a Covid 19 one would be any better? There will be a two week national lockdown I can see it coming and watch the destruction of business!
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Exactly- well said.
trainophile
Established Member
Not if total lockdown is decreed again. Remember the tales of people being stopped in their cars and interrogated about the reason they were not at home?
initiation
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I would consider attending a local protest however it is evident from the media that anti-lockdown/mask protestor are lumped in with anti-vaxxers, those who think it is all a conspiracy etc...
It's probably more damaging for the anti-lockdown cause to be associated with those groups.
It's probably more damaging for the anti-lockdown cause to be associated with those groups.
nlogax
Established Member
Incorrect. Deaths ARE beginning to rise again, however it's also important to note there is a marked difference between what we're seeing now and what we saw in the spring in terms of cases v deaths. A variety of reasons for this and probably all documented on this forum.
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I fear it's a bit late for that. Unless you mean Xmas 2021..?
LOL The Irony
Established Member
Why isn't that being reported when it was all the media could talk about in April? And May. And June.
trainophile
Established Member
It is reported, but only low key. Been in the mid-20s almost every day the last week. Hardly the hundreds of the first wave.
The big problem is any anti-lockdown protest is seen as “conspiracy” and compared to anti-vaxxers and other nonsense rather than for what they really are. It’s quite a shame.
nlogax
Established Member
It's being reported at a local and regional level. One or two extra here and there. Give it a week and national media will be up to its usual doom and gloom mongering once numbers get to a certain point (which will still be a fraction of spring).
choochootrain
On Moderation
For all those not in favour of a another lockdown, just remember why we had one in the first place. In late March/early April the NHS was at breaking point, not just with the amount of patients, but the sheer amount of staff absences.
I work as a locum, and I was getting calls at 2am in the morning begging me to come in for the next shift, where usually I get at least a few days notice.
Just remember that, before you start whining about how your 'freedoms' are being taken from you...
I work as a locum, and I was getting calls at 2am in the morning begging me to come in for the next shift, where usually I get at least a few days notice.
Just remember that, before you start whining about how your 'freedoms' are being taken from you...
With all due respect, the NHS was not overwhelmed in the first wave, in fact it was nowhere near it. The nightingales lay mostly empty, and most hospitals had plenty of room to spare.
To close down an entire society and quite literally destroy the country (which is what would happen) with another harsh lockdown would be inexcusable. I’m very, very angry at the vocal extremists who screamed for the government to introduce the current measures, but taking it further and doing another full lockdown would simply be a step too far, and one myself and many, many others will not accept or abide by.
choochootrain
On Moderation
I'm sorry to say though in fact the NHS very almost WAS overwhelmed, another few days of 'business as usual' and the NHS would've have completely collapsed. The hospital trusts were simply running out of staff, I don't think you realise how close to calamity we really were in the early days of lockdown.
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...which is why a national lockdown made sense then.
With social distancing, enhanced cleaning regimes, mask wearing and various activities that can be reduced, it is much more possible to manage infection rate without resorting to shutting down the country wholesale, imho.
choochootrain
On Moderation
Well, as a doctor I have to disagree...
Given that we just avoided it last time with an estimated 100,000 new infections at peak, locking down when we are at an estimated 6,000 per day makes no sense. When we get towards higher infection numbers then we can entertain the idea of a lockdown.
There were 1401 deaths reported for Spain in the first 18 days of September according to the JHU site. (649 for the whole of August). We normally follow them about 2 to 3 weeks later.
Er, it's not even clear that this is the case:
Of course there should be massive protests. Which of course, given what we've seen in London previously, will be policed appropriately I'm sure...
That's fair enough. You obviously have much more knowledge so I'd be interested to understand why you disagree?
Is that just a principle or is it a contractural thing? I've noticed it a lot in the past, but I figured it was just on a case-by-case basis
On a slightly less flippant note, whether the NHS was close to collapse is more of an administrative question than a medical one. We know from wipespread patient commentary that the GP service in large parts of the country effectively did collapse, and took quite a long time to recover. It's less clear whether lockdown mitigated that collapse very much or turned it around in the end.
In all probability the NHS will suffer much less from Covid-related staff shortages this time around for three reasons. Firstly, a lot of staff have already caught it and dealt with it in the first wave or since. Secondly, because there is much better availability of tier 1 testing meaning that staff with symptoms will have to spend less time self-isolating. And thirdly because we have a couple of significant treatments and better knowledge which could easily knock bed occupation down by a half.
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Based on the issues reported for the last week and more around getting a test, I think it's safe to say that the numbers reported are underestimates, and being artificially clipped. The ONS sampling is showing an increase for the last weeks, as does the estimated numbers from the symptom tracking & modelling done by Zoe/Kings College London/NHS. Whether the increase is enough to be a cause for alarm is the contentious bit.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
How else should one spin the narrative that people who disagree with lockdown are idiots? Just brand them all conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers, because everyone sees them as crazy and/or stupid.
A Challenge
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The anti-lockdown people here aren't anti-vaxx and I wouldn't say many of them are coming up with conspiracy theories either...
Scrotnig
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Indeed.
I’m vehemently anti lockdown but I could probably be described as pro-vaccine. Albeit not pro-mandatory vaccine. I’m inherently opposed to mandatory anything.
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I'd say my views were the same.
I'm pro vaccines in general. For novel vaccines I'm quite pro a decent length testing phase. If there isn't one of those then I'm pro being in the back half of the queue to get them.
The opinions shown on this thread are certainly in the minority on other forums I am on, and with people I speak to in person.
I’m not saying the opinions are right or wrong - just that the majority of opinion on this forum seems to differ from the majority of opinion from elsewhere.
I’m not saying the opinions are right or wrong - just that the majority of opinion on this forum seems to differ from the majority of opinion from elsewhere.
The majority opinion I've noticed is broadly as follows. People are totally fed up with restrictions, and many people are finding them nearly impossible to live with. But they're also willing to put up with them out of fear of the virus. The problem is that most of these people either overestimate the risk of the virus, or underestimate how long restrictions would be needed for.
bramling
Veteran Member
If that happens again I think we are highly likely to see some serious civil disobedience to the point police struggle to cope. To be honest some of the government’s body language already hints at losing control.
People won't stand for that level of authoritarianism again.
See my post on the subject of so-called "essential travel only" here:
Could we see a return to "essential travel only" messaging?
Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-we-see-a-head-out-to-help-out-scheme.208165/ The idea of encouraging mass public transport during a pandemic and likely second wave just will not happen. The media outcry would be horrendous; folks may disagree with the...
www.railforums.co.uk
An increasing number of people are starting to realise that most people are asymptomatic and that only a tiny proportion of people become seriously ill; as people wake up to this reality they will become less willing to give up their freedoms, livelihoods and will realise the biggest threat to our mental health and wellbeing is not the virus itself but the effects of the steps taken to slow down the spread of the virus.
The majority of people I speak to are not keen on locking down, staying at home and imposing restrictions. I guess it depends on who you talk to. The people I talk to care about young people, they are well educated and intelligent, and they look at the bigger picture.
If you ask someone in a secure, cushy work from home job who lives in a well proportioned house they are going to - on average - have a different view compared to a younger person whose livelihood has been taken from them and has greatly reduced job prospects and whose mental health is suffering.
So opinions on whether we should lockdown or not will vary massively. I strongly disagree with having another lockdown but I am very weary of protests, especially of the sort we saw on Saturday.
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