Couchettes or the lack thereof

[StephenHunter]

Why have couchettes never really been a thing in the UK?

 

[EcsWhyZee]

Why have couchettes never really been a thing in the UK?

British people like a natural divider between themselves and other humanoids.

 

[dk1]

Its not really a British thing. I used them a couple of times in the 90s across France/Germany but didn't like it one little bit. Far to impersonal.

 

[Iskra]

What services would they be any use on? They make most sense on routes that have a substantial day and night journey duration. The UK is simply not long enough to need both.

Couldn’t you argue that we had 2 person couchette’s with the old berth sharing options? Sharing personal space with strangers has never been popular in the UK.

 

[Ianno87]

British people like a natural divider between themselves and other humanoids.

Its not really a British thing. I used them a couple of times in the 90s across France/Germany but didn't like it one little bit. Far to impersonal.

Possibly a gauging thing? A 6 berth compartment with decent luggage storage would be 'snug' to say the least?

 

[Journeyman]

Loading gauge is one issue - couchettes typically sleep six, which you'd really struggle to fit into a UK sized vehicle. They may have appealed to budget conscious passengers in the past, but as stated there's very few journeys long enough.

Although for a long time people didn't seem to mind, sharing sleeper berths with strangers has not been popular for some time. I've done it on numerous occasions in the past, but as soon as I was able to pay the supplements and fares for solo occupancy, I did so. The west country sleeper was the first to do away with sharing, quite some time ago now. Caledonian Sleeper did some market research on it as part of their franchise bid, and found plenty of people who could afford a shared berth chose not to book one, and would rather travel in a seat instead. In recent years, sharing became something that almost all solo travellers refused to contemplate.

 

[dk1]

Couldn’t you argue that we had 2 person couchette’s with the old berth sharing options? Sharing personal space with strangers has never been popular in the UK.

That has always been a huge no no with me. I've always travelled with someone else thankfully on my dozens of sleeper journeys. The thought of it is the stuff of nightmares

 

[RT4038]

A 6 berth couchette in the UK loading gauge would be very cramped indeed.

With Aeroplanes, faster day trains and Travelodge type hotel chains, the demand for this type of accommodation on a train has virtually disappeared.

The Sleeper services in this country have recently abandoned strangers sharing a sleeping compartment 'by popular demand' [ and the expense of the berth already pretty much ensured a certain type of passenger!], so six strangers in a [cheaper] compartment is hardly likely to be popular. Sharing your sleeping space like that is no longer acceptable.

It is not as if Couchette cars are exactly popular on the Continent (or elsewhere in the world) nowadays, except in countries like India and Russia where distances are long and trains are still the travel norm for the masses.

I have travelled many times in Couchettes (or their equivalent). It is marginally better than sitting up all night, but nowadays there are alternatives which are much more comfortable and relaxing.

 

[Journeyman]

That has always been a huge no no with me. I've always travelled with someone else thankfully on my dozens of sleeper journeys. The thought of it is the stuff of nightmares

Nothing bad ever happened when I did it, and I think bad experiences for anyone were extremely rare, but it was clearly losing business, and it's no surprise it got axed.

 

[SargeNpton]

There was a time (up to the 1980s at least) when some overnight charter trains ran with compartment stock, when two people per compartment could hire a pillow and blanket. Probably the closest we got to couchettes.

 

[Iskra]

That has always been a huge no no with me. I've always travelled with someone else thankfully on my dozens of sleeper journeys. The thought of it is the stuff of nightmares

Same here and many non-enthusiasts feel the same, as I discovered recently in a book about the Anglo-Scottish sleepers.

The seats are more popular for the budget traveller as they are semi-supervised by crew and there is more room to spread out.

I once reluctantly booked a 3 person couchette on a Swedish sleeper to give the method a try. The train was 3 hours late, so they give me a full room to myself by way of apology, which I was very happy about. Beyond that I’ve always gone for a solo berth.

 

[Journeyman]

There was a time (up to the 1980s at least) when some overnight charter trains ran with compartment stock, when two people per compartment could hire a pillow and blanket. Probably the closest we got to couchettes.

Kids in the luggage racks?

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I've seen pictures of the old GWR third class sleeping cars which I seem to recall had six day seats, making up into four beds at night. Probably the closest you could get to couchettes within the British loading gauge. See here(not my pic, obviously): https://railwaywondersoftheworld.com/passenger-stock.html

 

[dk1]

I once reluctantly booked a 3 person couchette on a Swedish sleeper to give the method a try. The train was 3 hours late, so they give me a full room to myself by way of apology, which I was very happy about. Beyond that I’ve always gone for a solo berth.

My worst experiences found myself & a mate having a few jars in the bar car. On returning to the couchette the four other occupants had all gone to bed leaving us the top bunks. They where all tutting & shhhing us. We both slept in our clothes as dare not put the light on. Same thing happened getting up in the night to use the toilet. Absolutely dreadful experience & not to be repeated ever.

 

[TheGrew]

I was wondering if there is a compromise in that you could install Polaris aircraft seats on a train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was wondering if there is a compromise in that you could install Polaris aircraft seats on a train.

Lay-flat beds? CS looked at that but it wasn't acceptable due to the risk of neck injury in a collision when running backwards. Perhaps someone could design a rotating version?

 

[Speed43125]

Lay-flat beds? CS looked at that but it wasn't acceptable due to the risk of neck injury in a collision when running backwards. Perhaps someone could design a rotating version?

That would involve a level of leg room I suspect they wouldn't be willing to provide. Still would be nice though, I suspect it is this reason alone that Chinese HSR provides such generous leg room.

 

[Journeyman]

Has anyone seen "La Couchette", an episode of Inside Number 9?

 

[mrcheek]

Has anyone seen "La Couchette", an episode of Inside Number 9?

I am surprised it took this long for someone to mention it, since it nicely answers the original question!

Best tv series ever by the way

 

[norbitonflyer]

I have travelled couchette (once) on a French route with no sleeper available, and shared a sleeper compartment with a stranger (once) on an Anglo Scottish train when I was in a party of three. Nothing untoward happened on either journey, and I'd do it again if no sole occupancy was available. I must admit I felt safer in the couchette - sharing with a lone stranger seems riskier than sharing with five others - one would hope that force of numbers would moderate the behavior of a lone nutter.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I've used couchettes in Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Poland, Czech Republic, Austria, Italy, France and Spain. Plus the sleeper compartments in Vietnam are really just couchettes. The only problem I've had is the old Austrian couchettes had nothing to stop you falling out of the bed.

 

[BayPaul]

That would involve a level of leg room I suspect they wouldn't be willing to provide. Still would be nice though, I suspect it is this reason alone that Chinese HSR provides such generous leg room.

Simple - rotate each carriage around every time the train changes direction. If each carriage was a flat bed truck with the passenger accomodation in a container, then a forklift could be provided in each location to do the job simply!

This is not a serious suggestion.

 

[class ep-09]

Simple - rotate each carriage around every time the train changes direction. If each carriage was a flat bed truck with the passenger accomodation in a container, then a forklift could be provided in each location to do the job simply!

This is not a serious suggestion.

All that done at Waterloo with 8min turnaround

 

[Speed43125]

Simple - rotate each carriage around every time the train changes direction. If each carriage was a flat bed truck with the passenger accomodation in a container, then a forklift could be provided in each location to do the job simply!

This is not a serious suggestion.

Paris Metro could accommodate all that, no problem

 

[WesternLancer]

I've seen pictures of the old GWR third class sleeping cars which I seem to recall had six day seats, making up into four beds at night. Probably the closest you could get to couchettes within the British loading gauge. See here(not my pic, obviously): https://railwaywondersoftheworld.com/passenger-stock.html

Yes, and didn't the LMS also have 4 berth sleepers I seem to recall having seen images of those.

The question is really more about why a market did not develop for a very basic sleeper, which is what a couchette is - ie no washbasin, sleep in (some of) your clothes, limited bed linen provided.
so back in the day, when trains were slower and alternatives more limited, that a market did not get explored of this is indeed an interesting question.

Loading gauge no doubt part of it (but 4 berth couchette type rooms would seem feasible)

Possibility also the railway companies managing to
a) provide more expensive and more profitable sleepers for better off passengers who paid for them, and
b) got away with getting lower spending passengers to sit up all night in seated carriages

Given the larger number of night trains historically one would have thought there was a market for such a product.

 

[BayPaul]

All that done at Waterloo with 8min turnaround

Minute 1 - twistlocks, Minute 2 - lift, Minute 3 & 4 - drive around to the opposite platform, Minute 5 - lower, Minute 6 - twistlocks, minute 7&8 - drink tea

I'm seeing no problems here...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2020 ==

Yes, and didn't the LMS also have 4 berth sleepers I seem to recall having seen images of those.

The question is really more about why a market did not develop for a very basic sleeper, which is what a couchette is - ie no washbasin, sleep in (some of) your clothes, limited bed linen provided.
so back in the day, when trains were slower and alternatives more limited, that a market did not get explored of this is indeed an interesting question.

Loading gauge no doubt part of it (but 4 berth couchette type rooms would seem feasible)

Possibility also the railway companies managing to
a) provide more expensive and more profitable sleepers for better off passengers who paid for them, and
b) got away with getting lower spending passengers to sit up all night in seated carriages

Given the larger number of night trains historically one would have thought there was a market for such a product.

Realistically, 1x 4 berth cabin will take up 50% more room than a 2 berth cabin, so the ticket price reduction would only be 25% to make the same income per unit length of train - probably not enough of a reduction to attract people to what would not be a particularly pleasant experience.

 

[Devonian]

I seem to recall that there were American-style 'section' Pullmans and even 'dormitory' sleepers, but these were short-lived.

I doubt that sharing a closed compartment was considered unusual at first, which might also have reduced the need for more open couchettes: it was still reasonably common to share (cheap) hotel rooms with strangers in the first half of the 20th century. Four-berth compartments were in use for many years for third class, and bedding not routinely provided in them on all routes until the 'fifties: pretty much the couchette model in all but name. Some GWR ones even lacked doors to close the compartments from the corridor. With linen for both classes from the 'fifties, and dual berths only in new stock from 1957, the trend has been to a more hotel-like experience for decades.

If a low-floor design were adopted, could transverse 'pods' like the ones OBB is planning (https://www.nightjet.com/en/komfortkategorien/nightjetzukunft) be squeezed into the UK gauge?

 

[30907]

Yes, and didn't the LMS also have 4 berth sleepers I seem to recall having seen images of those.

The question is really more about why a market did not develop for a very basic sleeper, which is what a couchette is - ie no washbasin, sleep in (some of) your clothes, limited bed linen provided.
so back in the day, when trains were slower and alternatives more limited, that a market did not get explored of this is indeed an interesting question.

Loading gauge no doubt part of it (but 4 berth couchette type rooms would seem feasible)

Possibility also the railway companies managing to
a) provide more expensive and more profitable sleepers for better off passengers who paid for them, and
b) got away with getting lower spending passengers to sit up all night in seated carriages

Given the larger number of night trains historically one would have thought there was a market for such a product.

Third class sleepers, when they first came in, were effectively 4-berth couchettes. In the 50s BR made much of the new 2-berth sleepers for 3rd/2nd class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Longitudinal bunks would work quite well, the problem is the same, though, as the pods - you need to sleep with feet to the direction of travel to avoid neck injuries in an accident, and so it can't work with any train that has reversals.

(So technically the Riviera could have them or pods, but the Cally not)

 

[43096]

(So technically the Riviera could have them or pods, but the Cally not)

Until the Night Riviera has to go via Yeovil.