Which NSE rolling stock never got the NSE livery?

[yorksrob]

Were some of the Kent Link EMU's of the early to mid 90's until the networkers not EPB's if so I'm sure there were a couple in NSE livery for the Gillingham to Cannon Street/CX services until the networkers took over, I remember sitting in the compartment carriages a few times between Gillingham and Rochester/Gravesend 92/93 time, didn't some end up at Ramsgate as de-icers?

Oh there were plenty of EPB's in NSE livery at that time, although if you were in a compartment carriage in NSE livery on that route by then, there were a few HAP's working it that had been comprehensively refurbished.

 

[Swanny200]

Oh there were plenty of EPB's in NSE livery at that time, although if you were in a compartment carriage in NSE livery on that route by then, there were a few HAP's working it that had been comprehensively refurbished.

I thought they were all EPB's shows me what I know, all I know was that these when still in BR livery had 3rd class marked on some of the doors, you could still smoke in them and the seats were a weird blue grey colour with white and red strands through the grey if that was the colours they were supposed to be.

 

[yorksrob]

I guess that is quite possible - the non gangwayed feature of the EPBs was i guess prone to vandalism and it was quite a large fleet.

What did the 63xx 2-EPBs have as they had quite a different working role in the NSE period relative to the 54xx 4-EPBs that made their way to Kent services earlier.

I remember some BR design 2EPB's on the Addiscombe/Bromley North routes in the early 90's that had been done out fairly recently in green donkey stripe. They seemed quite smart. Wouldn't know what numbers they were.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2020 ==

I thought they were all EPB's shows me what I know, all I know was that these when still in BR livery had 3rd class marked on some of the doors, you could still smoke in them and the seats were a weird blue grey colour with white and red strands through the grey if that was the colours they were supposed to be.

The HAP's I was thinking of had NSE blue zig-zag.

Can't think what moquette you're thinking of !

 

[Bikeman78]

Oh there were plenty of EPB's in NSE livery at that time, although if you were in a compartment carriage in NSE livery on that route by then, there were a few HAP's working it that had been comprehensively refurbished.

Slight nitpick but they were probably 4CAPs. The five remaining HAPs were used to strengthen trains to Tunbridge Wells or Ashford. Also the unrefurbished BR design 2EPBs numbered 62XX lasted in service with compartments until the end of 1994. Several were withdrawn when 6301 to 6334 transferred from Selhurst in May 1993 but not all of them by any means.

 

[Swanny200]

Was similar to this but the lines were vertical not horizontal, mind you this could have been when they were still in BR blue, I know when i first started using the trains in 1990 there were one or two in blue still.

 

[yorksrob]

Slight nitpick but they were probably 4CAPs. The five remaining HAPs were used to strengthen trains to Tunbridge Wells or Ashford. Also the unrefurbished BR design 2EPBs numbered 62XX lasted in service with compartments until the end of 1994. Several were withdrawn when 6301 to 6334 transferred from Selhurst in May 1993 but not all of them by any means.

Ah, well you learn something every day r.e. the 2 EPB's

Apologies, I tend to refer to all the CAP's as HAP's as they were so similar.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2020 ==

Was similar to this but the lines were vertical not horizontal, mind you this could have been when they were still in BR blue, I know when i first started using the trains in 1990 there were one or two in blue still.

Ah yes, trojan - a very prolific design at one time !

 

[Bikeman78]

Were some of the Kent Link EMU's of the early to mid 90's until the networkers not EPB's if so I'm sure there were a couple in NSE livery for the Gillingham to Cannon Street/CX services until the networkers took over, I remember sitting in the compartment carriages a few times between Gillingham and Rochester/Gravesend 92/93 time, didn't some end up at Ramsgate as de-icers?

If it had compartments and it was in NSE livery then it was probably a 4CAP (a pair of HAPs permanently coupled). They worked their last few years on suburban duties. The compartments still had the first class seats in them. The compartment 2EPBs were blue and grey to the end although four did make it into NSE livery

 

[Swanny200]

I have had a look on Kent Rail and Blood and Custard, from my memory it was a 4-CAP as I remember looking at the blacked out drivers compartment windows wondering why they had obviously been put together, were they ever paired with 2-EPB's to make 6 car services?. The last time I ever saw one was about 1993, there was one dumped in platform 4 at Rochester for what seemed like weeks, never moved and the departure board on platform 4 showed Holborn Junction as a destination for the entire time it was there which was weird too. Rochester was always a weird one for me, you never saw much in platform 4 and platform 1 was always clear.

 

[43096]

Apologies, I tend to refer to all the CAP's as HAP's as they were so similar.

Weren't the CAPs just permanently coupled pairs of HAPs with the inner cabs de-commissioned? Hence the CAP (Coupled HAP) designation.

 

[yorksrob]

Weren't the CAPs just permanently coupled pairs of HAPs with the inner cabs de-commissioned? Hence the CAP (Coupled HAP) designation.

Pretty much.

The key point is, they were all splendid.

 

[43096]

Pretty much.

The key point is, they were all splendid rancid.

Corrected for you.

 

[yorksrob]

Corrected for you.

Oops, I think you've miss-typed there !

 

[4REP]

This video shows the interior of a 63XX 2EPB a few weeks before they all finished. It clearly hasn't got NSE seat moquette. There might have been the odd blue blaze one but I only remember this pattern.

The old moquette were known as Bournemouth Blue as this moquette were first introduced on the stock ie Reps TC and the first batch of 20 Veps for the Bournemouth electrification so obviously the moquette spreaded to later builds of Cigs and Veps also and incorporated into EPB/Hap stock on earlier refurbs in the late 60/70s

 

[fgwrich]

I was thinking about this earlier (on the DMU front) and well, do we have a winner? The Class 118. It seems a batch did work in the NSE area, but were moved on before receiving NSE Livery - allocations seem debatable though I have seen it somewhere that a few worked from Reading. Pretty much every other 1st Gen DMU did get the "Toothbrush" treatment, ranging from 101, 104, 108, 115, 116, the ubiquitous 117, 118, 119 and the omnipresent 121 - I like the formation of the last one!

http://www.hondawanderer.com/C465_Oxford_1987.htm

 

[Swanny200]

Pretty much.

The key point is, they were all splendid.

I have always wondered, had Clapham not happened, would slam door CIG's and EPB's have been running later than they ended up doing?, I did always wonder if the networker was a bit of a rush job the 465's and 466's specifically.

 

[yorksrob]

I have always wondered, had Clapham not happened, would slam door CIG's and EPB's have been running later than they ended up doing?, I did always wonder if the networker was a bit of a rush job the 465's and 466's specifically.

I think it was more the later CIG's and VEP's which didn't really last their full tenure due to Clapham. The EPB's were already getting on a bit.

 

[JonathanH]

I have always wondered, had Clapham not happened, would slam door CIG's and EPB's have been running later than they ended up doing?, I did always wonder if the networker was a bit of a rush job the 465's and 466's specifically.

No, I don't think Clapham had a bearing at all on slam door replacement at all - it led to some changes in the design of the Networker - ie the protection against vehicles riding up over each other - but the Networker program was the natural extension of what was already happening at the time Clapham happened. Remember that the Eastern region Mark 1 fleets (eg unrefurbished 302s, 305s, 307s) got replaced much earlier than those on the Southern region, so EPB then CEP, then Vep and Cig replacement was already anticipated and might have been complete by the turn of the Century if privatisation hadn't brought an end to the Networker revolution. Networker was NSE's opportunity to build a fleet from a fresh sheet of paper after the succession of Mark 3 derived units.

I think it was more the later CIG's and VEP's which didn't really last their full tenure due to Clapham. The EPB's were already getting on a bit.

That is one of those things which happens when a fleet is built over a long period. The early CIGs managed close on 40 years and the early VEPs 37 years. While the younger ones only saw just over 30 years service, I think it unlikely that the Phase 2 CIGs would ever have been kept in service for five years after the Phase 1 units had gone.

Clearly that would all have happened well after the NSE livery was applied though!

 

[Journeyman]

That is one of those things which happens when a fleet is built over a long period. The early CIGs managed close on 40 years and the early VEPs 37 years. While the younger ones only saw just over 30 years service, I think it unlikely that the Phase 2 CIGs would ever have been kept in service for five years after the Phase 1 units had gone.

Clearly that would all have happened well after the NSE livery was applied though!

Yeah, I think there's a few misconceptions around concerning the Southern's fleet longevity. The 40+ years achieved by some units is the exception, not the rule, and most fleets didn't last that long at all.

The original Brighton line express stock of the 1930s managed just over thirty years, and the slightly later semi-fast BILs and HALs managed about 35.

Although some classes like the SUBs, EPBs and HAPs were long-lasting, there were lots of early casualties. In the case of the SUBs, the first all-steel units emerged around 1946, but they were built in small batches, almost all of which had different internal layouts and technical features, so there were lots of non-standard units. Only the later ones built around 1950/51 finalised the design that later got modified into the EPB, and it was only those that lasted right to the end of SUB operation in 1983. Most of the early units only made it to the early-to-mid seventies, so just over 20 years, and the last units in service only just hit 30.

The final BR HAPs and EPBs were built in about 1962, and unfortunately were absolutely riddled with asbestos. Most of these only made it to about 20 - the newest HAPs and EPBs were the first to go. The HAPs were also quick to go once the full VEP fleet was available, as it was a better unit to travel in, and various service cuts left a surplus of HAPs. For their final decade in service, the HAP fleet was tiny. Originally well over a hundred units were built.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I was thinking about this earlier (on the DMU front) and well, do we have a winner? The Class 118. It seems a batch did work in the NSE area, but were moved on before receiving NSE Livery - allocations seem debatable though I have seen it somewhere that a few worked from Reading. Pretty much every other 1st Gen DMU did get the "Toothbrush" treatment, ranging from 101, 104, 108, 115, 116, the ubiquitous 117, 118, 119 and the omnipresent 121 - I like the formation of the last one!

http://www.hondawanderer.com/C465_Oxford_1987.htm

No, 51319 got NSE livery.

 

[AY1975]

One of the Hastings thumpers remained in service into NSE days, but it carried Southern green livery with yellow ends while in passenger use. (Ironically, it was painted into NSE after conversion to a de-icing unit !)

I don't think any of the Hastings DEMUs ever carried NSE livery in passenger service, though. They were withdrawn from service on the Hastings line just a month before the launch of NSE but a few of them saw occasional use on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines for at least a year after that.

 

[Journeyman]

I don't think any of the Hastings DEMUs ever carried NSE livery in passenger service, though. They were withdrawn from service on the Hastings line just a month before the launch of NSE but a few of them saw occasional use on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines for at least a year after that.

No, they didn't. The final complete unit went from blue and grey to green before it was withdrawn, in about 1990 I think. There were a few odd vehicles in the 205s and 207s, mainly replacing motor coaches lost to accident damage, but they all went in 1987, as electrification to East Grinstead allowed a lot of DEMU vehicles to be withdrawn. Anything non-standard went at that time, including 206101 - Hastings motor and trailer second, with a class 205 driving trailer composite.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think any of the Hastings DEMUs ever carried NSE livery in passenger service, though. They were withdrawn from service on the Hastings line just a month before the launch of NSE but a few of them saw occasional use on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines for at least a year after that.

No, they didn't. The final complete unit went from blue and grey to green before it was withdrawn, in about 1990 I think. There were a few odd vehicles in the 205s and 207s, mainly replacing motor coaches lost to accident damage, but they all went in 1987, as electrification to East Grinstead allowed a lot of DEMU vehicles to be withdrawn. Anything non-standard went at that time, including 206101 - Hastings motor and trailer second, with a class 205 driving trailer composite.

Yes, 1990 seems about right. I remember trying to catch it on the Marshlink on a few occasions. It was definitely green then.

 

[Journeyman]

Has anyone mentioned unrefurbished 302s? I don't think any of those were repainted, as they didn't last long into the NSE era.

 

[Swanny200]

Off of wiki, surprised they made it into NSE livery to be honest

I would imagine that not a lot of the 3xx AC stock would have been put into NSE colours apart from the 320/321

Just found out that the 322's never got the NSE livery, it got the branding but was never in the colours for the Stansted Express

 

[Journeyman]

You can tell that's a refurbished 302, though, because the head code panel is plated over. I've just done an image search for 302s, and can't find any photos of unrefurbished ones in NSE livery.

 

[Swanny200]

You can tell that's a refurbished 302, though, because the head code panel is plated over. I've just done an image search for 302s, and can't find any photos of unrefurbished ones in NSE livery.

I always thought they never had a headcode panel from new, I only ever saw one in the flesh once and that was in Barking before they went for good, they were not in the best of nick, I never ventured north of the river much unless you count going from KX to Aberdeen once or twice a year.

 

[Bikeman78]

I have had a look on Kent Rail and Blood and Custard, from my memory it was a 4-CAP as I remember looking at the blacked out drivers compartment windows wondering why they had obviously been put together, were they ever paired with 2-EPB's to make 6 car services?. The last time I ever saw one was about 1993, there was one dumped in platform 4 at Rochester for what seemed like weeks, never moved and the departure board on platform 4 showed Holborn Junction as a destination for the entire time it was there which was weird too. Rochester was always a weird one for me, you never saw much in platform 4 and platform 1 was always clear.

Yes the 4CAPs turned up any any 4EPB diagram so they could be part of 6, 8 or 10 car trains. Some CAPs made it to 1995. Incidentally I think some 319s turned out in the new Thameslink livery just before the last blue & grey EPBs departed so they never quite managed to have the whole NSE fleet in NSE livery. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm ignoring specially repainted units such as 5001, 5176 and 205029.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2020 ==

I have always wondered, had Clapham not happened, would slam door CIG's and EPB's have been running later than they ended up doing?, I did always wonder if the networker was a bit of a rush job the 465's and 466's specifically.

I agree with Jonathan, I don't think it made any difference. The CIGs and VEPs lasted almost 17 years after Clapham!

 

[Dr_Paul]

'Donkey Stripe' moquette is a new one for me, although I must have sat on it at some point. Has anyone a picture showing what it was like?

 

[Swanny200]

'Donkey Stripe' moquette is a new one for me, although I must have sat on it at some point. Has anyone a picture showing what it was like?

A quick google brings up this, I can remember travelling on one of these seats but cannot remember what train it was

 

[Bikeman78]

A quick google brings up this, I can remember travelling on one of these seats but cannot remember what train it was

I'm pretty sure the Clactons had that seat moquette.