Butts
Veteran Member
Not been for a decade but the spirit of "crocodile dundee" seems to be well and truly dead !!!
Just look at the price of a a packet of cigarettes.
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UK face coverings discussion
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Not been for a decade but the spirit of "crocodile dundee" seems to be well and truly dead !!!
Just look at the price of a a packet of cigarettes.
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RailUK Forums
Our safety people are also aware of the risks,and they say they are still assessing whether it's safe. But even though they're not sure it's safe they're making us do it anyway. I'm just glad that its cooler now, I couldn't have worn a mask all day in a lab in 35 degree heat! Still, it's going to be miserable.
RomeoCharlie71
Established Member
Good to see the Scottish CMO reinforcing the point that face coverings aren't the silver bullet in tackling COVID. Makes a change.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Even as someone who is pro-mask I would resort to claiming an exemption on the basis of asthma if that was to happen. There is very little if any evidence of transmission outside (Parkrun, for one, has commissioned a study on it which is talked about in their weekly podcast this week) and so this is completely unnecessary. And they do affect my breathing slightly, albeit only a small amount so I put up with it for short periods indoors because I believe they do have an effect, albeit a small one.
Had a nose through realtime trains. Looks like it was 2Y19 to Ellesmere Port on the 2nd. That ties in with a report that the passenger lives in Little Sutton. So this video shows almost the whole time that the train was stopped at Liverpool Central. It's not clear where the passenger or copper boarded but I doubt the passenger boarded before Moorfields, four minutes earlier.
I wonder what the future holds for face masks on public transport? Will they eventually become optional? Will that actually make it worse ... with people divided between those who will wear one and those who wont? Will that cause more resentment?
It will have to go that way sooner or later.
Can't see that it would cause as much resentment as the current situation does, with the way it encourages hostility towards people who are exempt.
Baxenden Bank
Established Member
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If there was a genuine case for wearing them, and that case was put forward intelligently, most people would voluntarily wear a face covering. They would wear them in busy places / shops / trains, and remove them when not in busy places. There would be no need for them to be compulsory (by rule / T & C) or mandated (by law / regulation). A few will always take the wrong path, but that is the case now anyway, and the pandemic modelling allows for that. There is nothing to stop someone from wearing a covering at all times, if that is their preference / belief.
The government messed up the initial messaging and seems somewhat lacking in social skills ie asking people nicely, which perhaps exposes their underlying authoritarian . dictatorial mentality.
That could well be because they know full well that any justification is very weak at best, so putting a convincing case to get people to wear them voluntarily would have been difficult!
STINT47
Member
Watching the Liverpol incident the passenger was asked to leave the train on more than one occasion and was also warned that he would be sprayed more than once but refused.
The problem is the video starts after the police office first approached the passenger. We therefore don't know what happened prior to the police arriving or how the officer initially dealt with the situation.
I would very much like to know if the passenger was given an explanation of why he was asked to leave the train and if so what the reason was. Everyone has assumed it was for not wearing a mask but in the video and in the press release the police never confirm this.
Either way this situation could have been handled much better by both parties. TZhe BTP could also have put out a much better press release to address peoples concerns.
I believe a complaint has now been made to the BTP professional standards department who are investigating. The passenger will also get his day in court so it would be interesting to see if anything further comes of this.
As someone who is exempt and about to embark on a rail rover holiday these sort of incidents make me anxious.However I suspect there is more to this than the way the media has portrayed it.
The problem is the video starts after the police office first approached the passenger. We therefore don't know what happened prior to the police arriving or how the officer initially dealt with the situation.
I would very much like to know if the passenger was given an explanation of why he was asked to leave the train and if so what the reason was. Everyone has assumed it was for not wearing a mask but in the video and in the press release the police never confirm this.
Either way this situation could have been handled much better by both parties. TZhe BTP could also have put out a much better press release to address peoples concerns.
I believe a complaint has now been made to the BTP professional standards department who are investigating. The passenger will also get his day in court so it would be interesting to see if anything further comes of this.
As someone who is exempt and about to embark on a rail rover holiday these sort of incidents make me anxious.However I suspect there is more to this than the way the media has portrayed it.
I'd like to know how the passenger was meant to handle the situation much better against BTP behaving like thugs?
STINT47
Member
By getting off the train when asked to, not shouting or swearing and not becoming aggressive.
Better to get off, remain calm and if the BTP are in the wrong make a complaint/take legal action later.
Why should people have to back down???
HSTEd
Veteran Member
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Pursuing the state via legal action is rarely a winning course of action, even if you are in the right.
I can see a possible way out as being only making them compulsory in so called "local lockdown" areas. Certainly would be easy to do that for shops, and local public transport. More difficult for long distance public transport though.
nedchester
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And he was such a nice guy wasn't he.
This from (admittedly from ten years ago) points to this bloke being utter scum:
Ellesmere Port man jailed for two years after stealing father’s car and £30,000 Lexus
A SERIAL car thief has been jailed after admitting stealing his father’s car as well as a £30,000 vehicle from a showroom.
But hey we'll just use our views about masks to cloud our judgements. As I say he's already 'known' on Merseyrail.............
And he was such a nice guy wasn't he.
This from (admittedly from ten years ago) points to this bloke being utter scum:
Ellesmere Port man jailed for two years after stealing father’s car and £30,000 Lexus
A SERIAL car thief has been jailed after admitting stealing his father’s car as well as a £30,000 vehicle from a showroom.www.cheshire-live.co.uk
But hey we'll just use our views about masks to cloud our judgements. As I say he's already 'known' on Merseyrail.............
It really doesn't matter about what his history is like, if he was challenged simply for not wearing a mask when he stated he had an exemption then the officer had no right to do what he did. There is no judgement to be had when it comes to exceptions, if someone states they are exempt the Police should not be challenging them. Of course if there was another reason for intervention then that is a different matter, but the videos shown appear to be in the context of not wearing a mask.
nedchester
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I do sometimes wonder how some of the people on this forum would manage if the had to deal with people like Baldwin on a regular basis. I have during my many years as a teacher and 'attitude' is very important when deciding a course of action with difficult situations. I'm still 100% with the BTP as I suspect they already knew him.
I hate to tell you this but I did for many years, in a public sector front facing role. And no matter how bad anyone was we were expected not to allow ourselves fall into the trap of ignoring the facts in front of us based on prior judgements. Like I said if the reason for the intervention was because he was not wearing a mask & he claimed an exemption, then that should have been the end of the matter.
nedchester
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More is coming out on this (locally) and it seems the bloke did cough and a passenger asked him to put on a mask at which point he deliberately started cough loudly and (not confirmed) in people's faces. As usual there's more to it than you see in the video but that won't suit Baldwin's arrogant agenda.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Police are there to enforce the law, not to enforce grudges against people who may previously have broken the law.
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If he stated he was exempt the Police were still out of order in their approach, not least because it would create fear in those who are exempt but have not committed other offences. Exemption stated, end of conversation (even if he was probably lying). I'm sure I recall people deliberately coughing being prosecuted for other offences, so they should use the correct offence.
There's a long history in the Police of finding something easier to get people on - for example, if stopped driving erratically they will look for e.g. bald tyres because it's absolute so easier. That isn't the right thing to do[1]; they need to deal with the crime actually committed.
[1] Of course in that example you should prosecute both, so no harm in looking for other things as well, but looking for an easier offence is not the right way to go, particularly in this sort of case.
It seems he has been charged with threatening behaviour & assaulting an officer. As I understand it coughing at people comes under the charge of assault, so thus far it does not seem to be what he was charged with. No doubt more will be learnt when the case is heard or dropped.
Indeed, a person's past does not necessarily mean they are instantly guilty.
One of the skills of being a police officer is the ability to rise above the attitudes of not very nice people. The police have to maintain the moral high ground.
I dread to think what would happen if this officer was presented with a drunk and disorderly person throwing insults at him.
To put it simply, two wrongs don't make a right.
I dread to think what would happen if this officer was presented with a drunk and disorderly person throwing insults at him.
To put it simply, two wrongs don't make a right.
To be fair, upon rewatching, I can't hear the word "mask" come out of the police officers mouth. The only people shouting about masks in the video are the people doing the filming and the chap getting arrested.
I have no doubt he's a complete scrote, that much is obvious in the first two seconds of the video. I also have no doubt there is more to the incident than we can see in the video.
If it was just about masks, then it's very heavy handed. But again, to be fair the BTP officer did first ask him to leave the train before he physically removed him. Regardless of how in the right you think you are, the law is quite clear that if you are directed to leave a premises you must do so. That's why he was physically removed - at the point he refused to follow lawful directions it was no longer about masks or coughing or anything else.
I have no doubt he's a complete scrote, that much is obvious in the first two seconds of the video. I also have no doubt there is more to the incident than we can see in the video.
If it was just about masks, then it's very heavy handed. But again, to be fair the BTP officer did first ask him to leave the train before he physically removed him. Regardless of how in the right you think you are, the law is quite clear that if you are directed to leave a premises you must do so. That's why he was physically removed - at the point he refused to follow lawful directions it was no longer about masks or coughing or anything else.
I'm not entirely sure that a member of the public escalating an encounter with the police is a wise course of action no matter how righteous their cause maybe.
AndyY
Member
It is a shame that some on here are openly supporting a vile man instead of the police, just because of your dislike of masks.
In this country, there is no effective channel of complaint against the police, because the people who handle the process are ... the police themselves.
You do not mess with the police, especially if you are well known to them. That goes for most countries in the world.
Meanwhile, in East Asian countries, people are wearing masks (even in 30C+ summer weather) and the situation is well under control, while in UK you are arguing why masks are useless as the number of infections start to rocket. Utter disgrace!
In this country, there is no effective channel of complaint against the police, because the people who handle the process are ... the police themselves.
You do not mess with the police, especially if you are well known to them. That goes for most countries in the world.
Meanwhile, in East Asian countries, people are wearing masks (even in 30C+ summer weather) and the situation is well under control, while in UK you are arguing why masks are useless as the number of infections start to rocket. Utter disgrace!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm in favour of masks. I'm not in favour of the Police misusing their authority, whether they happen to like the person they are arresting or not. They must, absolutely must, be 100% on the law, and in this case if you state you have an exemption that is it as there is no process to confirm one. If that means they can't get someone who needs getting, that's "collateral damage". Better false negatives than false positives.
I don't think anyone is actually supporting him, rather the principle that people can have exceptions to wearing masks and as such should not be challenged by the Police. That it happened to someone with form is beside the point, if it happens to him you can be sure that other people will be treat in a similar manner. The government have made it clear about exceptions, and it is the responsibility of the Police to behave in a professional manner, including respecting that they cannot challenge someone who states they have an exception.
Rubbish.
Complaints against the U.K. police are handled independently by a specialist department, and the police are subject open to a lot more scrutiny in this country than they are in many parts of the world (including many east Asian countries). That’s all to the good, and is evidenced by the fact we are even able to view and discuss the video in question.
As for the comment about people wearing masks in east Asian countries and the virus being under control, correlation doesn’t equal causation.
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