UK face coverings discussion

[Scrotnig]

where you have to take a piece of paper home and write an apology/lines on it

They still give out lines as punishments in schools? I thought that practice had long been discredited.

There's no way I'd have written an apology for not wearing a mask.

 

[jtuk]

No it was not 100% correct. The officer will have questions to answer here.

What makes me even more dubious about the BTP handling here is even this morning, they stated that a passenger was spitting and then changed their story to spitting. It all stinks of incompetence to me.

Indeed. If he was indeed spitting then you just nick the guy for any number of offences, assault will do

 

[DB]

Indeed. If he was indeed spitting then you just nick the guy for any number of offences, assault will do

Yes, and far easier to prove / convict on than the mask law - it's hard to see why they wouldn't nick him for common assault IF he had actually spat at someone.

 

[bramling]

I guess it depends, amongst other things, on how many cars they have and whether they are going around empty.

If someone with a bona fide disability could show that the policy resulted in them being treated unfavourably, then it could be a discrimination case; however, the railway would have a defence if it shows that the treatment is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim – section 15 (1) Equality Act 2010.

It is trivially true that their policy is a means of achieving an aim (the aim being to reduce the spread of Covid19) but whether it the proportionate and legitimate tests are met would ultimately be a question for a court.

Yes I suppose it’s a difficult one. Certainly at most times providing an empty car wouldn’t be difficult at all. It probably wouldn’t be that hard to provide an empty car for all users, as there’s only going to be so many people wishing to travel from one part of the town to the other. With open-air space to queue this would probably be preferable in many ways, and would then not discriminate against anyone.

One presumes they may have considered the legal side of this before finalising the policy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2020 ==

Yes, and far easier to prove / convict on than the mask law - it's hard to see why they wouldn't nick him for common assault IF he had actually spat at someone.

Yes I still don’t quite get what was going on. If the person was playing the arse then why had he not already been arrested by that point, instead of laying on a mask floor-show for everyone to watch.

On-train CCTV should provide the full picture of course.

 

[trebor79]

Like in many incidents the police will use the 'attitude' test. The bloke had an appalling attitude and although I am no fan of masks what the police did here was 100% correct.

I completely disagree. If the discussion was just about masks (and there's nothing in the video to suggest any discussion about spitting or coughing at people took place), then as soon as the guy said "I'm exempt" that should be the end of the discussion. Maybe he did have a bit of a surly manner, but that isn't an offence either and you don't know how many times he's had to try and explain he's exempt before the camera rolled - people do get frustrated, especially when authority is exerted upon them incorrectly.

The police officer is a disgusting bully from what can be seen and ought to be having a long hard think about his approach.

 

[Bantamzen]

The thing that strikes about the Merseyrail incident is not so much how the BTP officer reacted, but how the comments have flowed off the back of it. Until recently I would have expected a tirade of abuse for the bloke and praise for the copper, now the tide is turning and the Police are coming under more fire.

Right back at the very beginning, I thought that civil unrest would be imminent as the restrictions came into force, but I was proved wrong. For the very large part people have meekly accepted everything thrown at them, presumably because they thought that it would save them from the big bad virus, and that it wouldn't last too long.

Fast forward to now and people are starting to see that the big bad virus probably isn't going to get them, but the government & their appointed authorities are getting increasing aggressive with them. And with each video like this, people (at least some) are starting to get angry, both on the scene as demonstrated in that video, and beyond. Its this growing feeling of pent up frustration that might come back to bite the authorities on the backside.

 

[Bikeman78]

Video footage of an incident is doing the rounds on social media at what appears to be at Liverpool Central Station on the Wirral Line platform. The video has been shared by an anti mask group, however I believe it was not filmed by them.

Now without doing the whole debate about face coverings being right or wrong, this footage shows some serious issues in the policing of the face covering laws. The officer's use of force seems unwarranted and to spray pepper spray onboard a train seems ridiculous.

As with all social media posts making allegations (particularly towards the Police), the whole story is probably not told in this footage. I must say that on the evidence shown here, the BTP have some serious questions to answer. Merseyrail also have a reputation for being somewhat heavy handed in their approach to dealing with laws/bylaws.

What I also find interesting is the public response on social media to these videos is a real mixed bag littered with false beliefs that anyone who is medically exempt must carry a certificate. This belief and these heavy handed tactics shown here are not going to do much to encourage people back to the railway. Quite a lot of people however are supporting the individual for standing up for himself and I find myself torn between both views. The bloke featured does not appear to have any health issues making him exempt but who am I (or a police officer) to judge. We can only take his word for it.

Do the laws relating to the use of face coverings on public transport need reviewing to avoid situations like this?

Links to the footage which has been posted on Twitter is below (I'm unable to embed twitter posts into this forum)

Edit: please note these videos contain some offensive language and physical violence.

Video 1
Video 2

Absolutely bonkers. I note that most of the comments support the member of the public and also point out that many of the coppers were not wearing masks.

 

[DB]

The thing that strikes about the Merseyrail incident is not so much how the BTP officer reacted, but how the comments have flowed off the back of it. Until recently I would have expected a tirade of abuse for the bloke and praise for the copper, now the tide is turning and the Police are coming under more fire.

Right back at the very beginning, I thought that civil unrest would be imminent as the restrictions came into force, but I was proved wrong. For the very large part people have meekly accepted everything thrown at them, presumably because they thought that it would save them from the big bad virus, and that it wouldn't last too long.

Fast forward to now and people are starting to see that the big bad virus probably isn't going to get them, but the government & their appointed authorities are getting increasing aggressive with them. And with each video like this, people (at least some) are starting to get angry, both on the scene as demonstrated in that video, and beyond. Its this growing feeling of pent up frustration that might come back to bite the authorities on the backside.

Plus the regular U-turns by Johnson are giving the clear impression that he has no actual policy and is just winging it according to which way he thinks the wind of public opinion happens to be blowing. Lack of any clear plan is also causing increasing frustration for many.

 

[bramling]

The thing that strikes about the Merseyrail incident is not so much how the BTP officer reacted, but how the comments have flowed off the back of it. Until recently I would have expected a tirade of abuse for the bloke and praise for the copper, now the tide is turning and the Police are coming under more fire.

Right back at the very beginning, I thought that civil unrest would be imminent as the restrictions came into force, but I was proved wrong. For the very large part people have meekly accepted everything thrown at them, presumably because they thought that it would save them from the big bad virus, and that it wouldn't last too long.

Fast forward to now and people are starting to see that the big bad virus probably isn't going to get them, but the government & their appointed authorities are getting increasing aggressive with them. And with each video like this, people (at least some) are starting to get angry, both on the scene as demonstrated in that video, and beyond. Its this growing feeling of pent up frustration that might come back to bite the authorities on the backside.

Agree with all this. I think what has happened is not enough was done at government level during the January - March period, culminating in high-profile mishaps like Boris ending up in intensive care, the high-profile care home death figures, et cetera. Then we end up with the scare tactics, and now a government and population incapable of making a rational assessment of the situation.

Who knows what will happen next. We’re out and about this week, for the first time really since the beginning of the year (not through being scared, but a combination of other reasons), and to be honest it’s all a little oppressive. We’ve tried to adopt a “make the best of it” and “glass half full” attitude, however reality is the various measures have pretty much taken away pretty much any element of flexibility - instead we’ve essentially been completely tied down literally to the minute in some cases. I can’t help but find it takes enjoyment away, and this is seriously going to harm businesses over time, especially the autumn and winter period where there isn’t a plentiful supply of families.

Checking into a hotel last night gave an interesting perspective - whilst I am utterly opposed to masks, in such places I will make some attempt to comply for one reason only which is to avoid creating issues for the staff. Upon asking if the receptionist wanted us to wear a mask, he went straight off into a rant about how he was so sick of it all, and that in his view it should be personal choice and “wear one if you wish but good for you if you don’t, we’re certainly not enforcing it, not even encouraging it, it’s causing so much trouble”.

 

[BJames]

Checking into a hotel last night gave an interesting perspective - whilst I am utterly opposed to masks, in such places I will make some attempt to comply for one reason only which is to avoid creating issues for the staff. Upon asking if the receptionist wanted us to wear a mask, he went straight off into a rant about how he was so sick of it all, and that in his view it should be personal choice and “wear one if you wish but good for you if you don’t, we’re certainly not enforcing it, not even encouraging it, it’s causing so much trouble”.

This sounds like somewhere I'd like to stay in. It'd certainly get repeat business from me.

 

[trebor79]

This sounds like somewhere I'd like to stay in. It'd certainly get repeat business from me.

Ditto.

 

[Wuffle]

Saw it on fb last night no mention of spitting or coughing by the "officer". If the passenger has been as alleged "coughing or spitting" then I wonder what might have preceded this
Given some of the comments regarding TOC staff I wonder if somebody somewhere lit a fuse and retired ?
Let's hope the CCTV shows all

 

[talldave]

Like in many incidents the police will use the 'attitude' test. The bloke had an appalling attitude and although I am no fan of masks what the police did here was 100% correct.

Saw it on fb last night no mention of spitting or coughing by the "officer". If the passenger has been as alleged "coughing or spitting" then I wonder what might have preceded this
Given some of the comments regarding TOC staff I wonder if somebody somewhere lit a fuse and retired ?
Let's hope the CCTV shows all

I'm sure the CCTV will magically disappear if it supports the passenger's side of the argument. I hope that a large number of people who put on masks for the first time on the 24th July see this video and realise that this is what the future holds.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure the CCTV will magically disappear if it supports the passenger's side of the argument. I hope that a large number of people who put on masks for the first time on the 24th July see this video and realise that this is what the future holds.....

If that Police Officer is abusing his authority over masks, he'll only abuse it over something else. We really need to get people who abuse their authority out of both our Police Forces and our commercial security guard provisions via permanent withdrawal of SIA licences for such misconduct.

 

[stevetay3]

Who failed the attitude test, the goon or the passenger

 

[bramling]

Who failed the attitude test, the goon or the passenger

Who knows as much depends on what happened first, however it doesn’t look to have been well handled by the police officer. If something so awful had happened initially then why was the passenger not arrested sooner? It does seem to be the stereotypical crazed maskophile “do as I say and wear your mask” attitude.

However without seeing the whole thing who knows?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who failed the attitude test, the goon or the passenger

Failing the attitude test isn't a criminal offence. It is of use in deciding whether to apply discretion to someone who is either requesting something they're not specifically entitled to, or to someone who has done something wrong and you want to decide if you'll let them off or not. It isn't acceptable to use it as a determination of whether to punish someone for an offence they are not committing.

The offence of not wearing a mask is not complete because of the statement of exemption. It has to end there.

 

[jtuk]

Who failed the attitude test, the goon or the passenger

Why can't it be both?

 

[bramling]

Why can't it be both?

Generally we wouldn’t be expecting people in respected roles like the police to be failing attitude tests. That’s not to say it can’t happen, but it certainly *shouldn’t*.

In the same way that there’s people at my work whom I dislike for one reason or another, however in a professional capacity I wouldn’t treat them differently because of this.

 

[stevetay3]

I think there is more to this than has been shown on social media, police officers should not behave in this way in any circumstances especially on a public train service, pepper spray was used around other people. Some of the cops were not wearing masks themselves whilst ordering others to do so.Double standards me thinks.

 

[johnnychips]

In a letter to parents, City of York Council (CYC) say:

Is that true?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...us-outbreak/guidance-for-full-opening-schools says:


Are CYC lying?

( @johnnychips @Merseysider are you aware of similar claims being made in your areas?)

As I work for a charitable college, I don’t think the guidance would apply to us the same as ‘state’ schools. However, no staff wear masks and about two out of a hundred students have chosen to wear them.

 

[yorkie]

.... Some of the cops were not wearing masks themselves whilst ordering others to do so....

Just to be clear, police officers do not have to wear masks, neither do railway staff.

Not that I am defending their actions, but just clarifying in case anyone reading this wasn't already aware.

As I work for a charitable college, I don’t think the guidance would apply to us the same as ‘state’ schools. However, no staff wear masks and about two out of a hundred students have chosen to wear them.

That's good to hear.

 

[stevetay3]

Just to be clear, police officers do not have to wear masks, neither do railway staff.

Not that I am defending their actions, but just clarifying in case anyone reading this wasn't already aware.

So the virus knows who to miss out then and not affect railway staff and police.

 

[yorkie]

So the virus knows who to miss out then and not affect railway staff and police.

I didn't say any of this was logical! Face coverings are a total farce.

 

[adc82140]

Exactly. The law and scientific evidence say different things. Scientific evidence, if I'm really generous, says that wearing a surgical mask (note, surgical mask) may reduce transmission.

The law says that certain people must cover their noses and mouths any which way in certain circumstances.

Therefore police officers, shop workers, rail staff, even the woman in the beekeepers hat I mentioned a couple of weeks ago are in compliance with the law. The law may well be an ass, and utterly confused, but that's one to argue with the people in Westminster.

 

[stevetay3]

I agree with you 100% Yorkie, just pointing out how mad this is getting. Fights breaking out on trains, being put in isolation in certain areas and not others, all because of a virus no worse than others have been in the past

 

[bramling]

I agree with you 100% Yorkie, just pointing out how mad this is getting. Fights breaking out on trains, being put in isolation in certain areas and not others, all because of a virus no worse than others have been in the past

It’s a consequence of having a political system which has well and truly gone stale over recent (and perhaps not so recent) years. The country urgently needs some credible leadership, and doesn’t have it.

I would be prepared to vote for Starmer at this moment as I do feel he has *some* useful experience on his CV, compared to Johnson who has proved himself to be utterly useless. However there is a snag to that, which is that any Labour cabinet I don’t think would be any better than the current Conservative one, which is saying something as they are pretty awful.

Somehow someone needs to get a hold of this, as masks are just one example of how farcical things have got. It would be funny but for the small matter that it’s properly serious, and lives are going to be scarred by all this if it continues. We have a miserable dystopian atmosphere, and there undoubtedly *are* people using it all as an opportunity to impose their own brand of awkwardness on others, whilst we have others who clearly don’t have the critical ability to make reasoned judgements. It’s the same mentality which fought over toilet rolls, and a government too weak and incompetent themselves to pull people together.

We’ve been out and about all week and to be honest it’s been underwhelming at best. Indeed we’ve just had a conversation along the lines that out next set of outings will be all outdoor activities, with minimal visiting managed attractions and the like. Likewise we’ll likely bring a microwave and eat in the hotel room. No good for local businesses, and from our experience this week now schools are back visitor numbers are tumbling.

 

[stevetay3]

It’s a consequence of having a political system which has well and truly gone stale over recent (and perhaps not so recent) years. The country urgently needs some credible leadership, and doesn’t have it.

I would be prepared to vote for Starmer at this moment as I do feel he has *some* useful experience on his CV, compared to Johnson who has proved himself to be utterly useless. However there is a snag to that, which is that any Labour cabinet I don’t think would be any better than the current Conservative one, which is saying something as they are pretty awful.

Somehow someone needs to get a hold of this, as masks are just one example of how farcical things have got. It would be funny but for the small matter that it’s properly serious, and lives are going to be scarred by all this if it continues. We have a miserable dystopian atmosphere, and there undoubtedly *are* people using it all as an opportunity to impose their own brand of awkwardness on others, whilst we have others who clearly don’t have the critical ability to make reasoned judgements. It’s the same mentality which fought over toilet rolls, and a government too weak and incompetent themselves to pull people together.

We’ve been out and about all week and to be honest it’s been underwhelming at best. Indeed we’ve just had a conversation along the lines that out next set of outings will be all outdoor activities, with minimal visiting managed attractions and the like. Likewise we’ll likely bring a microwave and eat in the hotel room. No good for local businesses, and from our experience this week now schools are back visitor numbers are tumbling.

Agree 100% Something has to change

 

[talldave]

I think there is more to this than has been shown on social media, police officers should not behave in this way in any circumstances especially on a public train service, pepper spray was used around other people. Some of the cops were not wearing masks themselves whilst ordering others to do so.Double standards me thinks.

Cops not wearing masks bullying passengers into wearing masks has been an issue since they were mandated. It's what totally undermines the requirement and makes it a total farce.

On the subject of pepper spray, it seems even more stupid to consider using it against someone who claims to have a mask exemption - which might just be a medical issue related to their respiratory system. I'm not sure my lack of respect for BTP can get any more lacking.

 

[bramling]

Cops not wearing masks bullying passengers into wearing masks has been an issue since they were mandated. It's what totally undermines the requirement and makes it a total farce.

On the subject of pepper spray, it seems even more stupid to consider using it against someone who claims to have a mask exemption - which might just be a medical issue related to their respiratory system. I'm not sure my lack of respect for BTP can get any more lacking.

The vast majority of BTP (*) don’t give a stuff about masks, they’re just going through the motions doing the bare minimum required to comply with their obligations. However like the population in general there are a few individual mask obsessives.

* I add the caveat that my experiences whilst in a professional capacity are all in the London / SE area, so things may be more variable elsewhere perhaps.