CarterUSM
Established Member
As i've said Justin, complain if you feel so strongly about it, you'll get an official reply at least.
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How do some train guards get away with not checking/charging for the tickets ?
- Thread starter Justin Smith
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As i've said Justin, complain if you feel so strongly about it, you'll get an official reply at least.
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Justin Smith
Established Member
I've made the same journey with different guards and some collect/check/sell tickets, some don't.
This is all a smokescreen.
Why don't we just admit that some guards are conscientious, and some aren't.
What I`m most surprised about is so many people defending them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On reflection I should have kept things simple and not get sidetracked.
What I actually wanted to know, and the question has been subsumed, is what the managers say when the ticket machines are returned withhardly any tickets sold ?
Does anyone in this industry actually know the answer to that question ?
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Why not actually read GB's post? (Post 60).
CarterUSM
Established Member
It is not an easy question to answer and depends on a number of factors set by the revenue and marketing department of a TOC, and indeed whether some TOC's even have 'targets' for their commercial staff is open to question , bottom line is that it varies, and also that it is really not your concern whatsoever , no offence intended of course. Also what a manager may say in the instance you describe is also not your concern i'm afraid, it's not even my concern!!!
anonymous0101
Member
- Joined
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- 192
Guards cannot get in trouble for low ticket sales. But if there are any irregularities in revenue it could mean something else (not lazyness(!!)). As i keep saying safety first so a Guard will get disciplined for giving two on the bell against a signal but as tickets are secondary that doesn't matter.
I actually have it on good authority that good customer service and safety is more important than chasing after people who are only going one or two stops and walk to the other end of the train to avoid paying.
Justin how does it feel now you know a lot of people on this forum despise you and consider you to be a troll? (ie deliberately stirring up trouble)
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I actually have it on good authority that good customer service and safety is more important than chasing after people who are only going one or two stops and walk to the other end of the train to avoid paying.
Justin how does it feel now you know a lot of people on this forum despise you and consider you to be a troll? (ie deliberately stirring up trouble)
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I didn't comment as I was too busy sipping my cup of tea and reading the paper...!
jimrbrobinson
Member
Which is a statement that can be made of any working group in any job title in any profession or industry. There will always be some workers who are better than others, and some (a small minority) who give their colleagues a bad name. The fact, which has been answered several times on this thread, and which even I as an outsider to the rail industry at the present time recognise, is that train guards / conductors are 'getting away with it' because ticket checking / selling / revenue protection is not the primary focus of their job. Now, I may be wrong on this, and I'm sure someone will quickly correct if I am, but it is my understanding that Revenue Protection Assistants, Ticket Inspectors, or whatever job title they have do not generally have to have SCWID cards, because their primary working role is not safety critical, their primary role is checking / selling tickets. The Guard / Conductor does, and their primary role is safety critical above all else. Therefore, I would suspect that a manager isn't checking how many tickets are issued by a conductor / guard, but that they have carried out their safety duties. Whereas, the management will be checking the tickets checked / sold by RPA's, as that is their whole reason for being employed.
scotsman
Established Member
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Look, you cannot read minds. If you were on a certain preserved railway last weekend you might have thought - "Why has my ticket not been checked? There's 3 guards on the train"
But in fact, there was:
1 Guard, riding in the Guard's office
1 Travelling Ticket Inspector, Riding in the Guard's Office
1 Guards Inspector, instructing the Travelling Ticket Inspector on track safety and despatch.
You could have come to the conclusion that we were just chatting instead of doing our jobs and put in a formal complaint.
Then all 3 of us would have to explain what we were doing because you've made an ill-informed guess on what might be going on.
Try seeing the good in people, try assuming that perhaps there's a reason why someone is doing something - they're not stupid, they've been trained in what to do, they've got experience of doing their job. And you, my friend, haven't.
But in fact, there was:
1 Guard, riding in the Guard's office
1 Travelling Ticket Inspector, Riding in the Guard's Office
1 Guards Inspector, instructing the Travelling Ticket Inspector on track safety and despatch.
You could have come to the conclusion that we were just chatting instead of doing our jobs and put in a formal complaint.
Then all 3 of us would have to explain what we were doing because you've made an ill-informed guess on what might be going on.
Try seeing the good in people, try assuming that perhaps there's a reason why someone is doing something - they're not stupid, they've been trained in what to do, they've got experience of doing their job. And you, my friend, haven't.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
No, its a very important thread.
It provides an unimportant person the opportunity to rant about something which, to most of us with any sense of perspective, isn't of any significance, importance or relevance at all.
I think more people have died today and others have lost their livelihood today than usual. We've got a lot of displaced families in Pakistan I hear, and some trouble with pollenating our UK crops not to mention our evaporating pensions and other really important things to be dealing with right now.
Good idea. Could we create a new "complaints about other people 'cos I'm easily wound up and I know better" forum in which all the posts are actually invisible, but it helps by making complainers feel better after having had their little rant?
Simon Poole
Member
Yesterday i travelled to Birmingham International from Rugeley Town
Boarded the 1250 Virgin Trains service to London Euston (Between Birmingham New Street & International) there was no Ticket conductor
boarded the 1613 Virgin Trains service to Birmingham New Street from Birmingham International, no conductor or guard came to check the tickets
Boarded the 1639 from Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley, No Ticket conductor (I was in the Class 153)
Some people boarded the train at Cannock and got an free ride to Hednesford! even know they were planning to get off at Rugeley Trent Valley!
If i had no ticket, all the above would had been free rides! lucky i did get a Ticket pruchased while on the 1146 Rugeley Town to Birmingham New Street
Rugeley Town to Birmingham International with 16/25 Railcard £4.30 (Off Peak)
Boarded the 1250 Virgin Trains service to London Euston (Between Birmingham New Street & International) there was no Ticket conductor
boarded the 1613 Virgin Trains service to Birmingham New Street from Birmingham International, no conductor or guard came to check the tickets
Boarded the 1639 from Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley, No Ticket conductor (I was in the Class 153)
Some people boarded the train at Cannock and got an free ride to Hednesford! even know they were planning to get off at Rugeley Trent Valley!
If i had no ticket, all the above would had been free rides! lucky i did get a Ticket pruchased while on the 1146 Rugeley Town to Birmingham New Street
Rugeley Town to Birmingham International with 16/25 Railcard £4.30 (Off Peak)
I hate it when trainspotters tell me how I should work a train.
The guard is the man in charge of the train,
I bet if I went an told a person with many years on a job how it should be performed I'd get told where to go.
A little knowledge is always dangerous.
The guard is the man in charge of the train,
I bet if I went an told a person with many years on a job how it should be performed I'd get told where to go.
A little knowledge is always dangerous.
So, you didn't have your ticket checked on two 9-minute journeys on a train formed of 9 carriages, I think we should sack them all. Can you not read things back before posting, as it makes you sound silly? Are you really expecting a full ticket check between BHM and BHI? You then boarded a very busy service from New St and may not have been in the same portion of the train as the guard. You finished your post with a little gem of info that I've picked up on - 'If i had no ticket, all the above would had been free rides! lucky i did get a Ticket pruchased while on the 1146 Rugeley Town to Birmingham New Street
' - so you purchased your ticket from the guard then, which is far more likely on a midday Off-Peak service.
Simon Poole
Member
The 1250 wasn't that busy, there was only two people in Coach A, Quiet Coach! As for purchising my ticket on the train...if i didn't i would had to wait in a an queue at Birmingham waiting for an ticket, there has been times i traveleld to Birmingham and didn't get an ticket on the train so i walk up to two people next to the Information desk and the gates and get my ticket sorted
Barriers at both. Not worth the bother checking, clearly. It would be pointless. How can you check a 9 coach train in 10 mins?
So there was a conductor, but an extra coach was provided with no corridor connection. Whose fault is that? Maybe you can inform your fellow passengers that you are going to write to LM asking them to reduce the train to 2 carriages, that'll solve the problem!:roll:
How do you know they got free rides and how do you know they planned to get off at Rugeley and went to Hendesford? Doesn't make much sense to me.
Some random people commented that one of our group got a 'free ride' on WSMR a few weeks ago because the guard didnt get to him before Wolverhampton. They just made that up; he had a through ticket to Hull purchased weeks ago. Assumptions are just that, and can be wrong.
If you hadn't got a ticket on your outward, you would have gone one at the ticket office at Birmingham International, right? If not you would have been eligible for a PF.
Justin Smith
Established Member
It is not an easy question to answer and depends on a number of factors set by the revenue and marketing department of a TOC, and indeed whether some TOC's even have 'targets' for their commercial staff is open to question , bottom line is that it varies, and also that it is really not your concern whatsoever , no offence intended of course. Also what a manager may say in the instance you describe is also not your concern i'm afraid, it's not even my concern!!!
It`s of interest to me.
Actually, having thought about it, as a tax payer (the railways are subsidised) non collection of revenue is my concern !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought Forums were about debate. Just so long as nobody is insulting anyone then vigorous debate shoule be encouraged.
Despise me ?
I feel sorry for them.
I don`t despise anyone in the world.
Anyone who despises anyone is sad, but anyone who despises someone who isn`t even insulting them must have personality problems.
Invincibles
Member
It actually strikes me that not checking tickets all the time is a very good way to get value for taxpayer money. £1 can not be spent twice by the same individual after all 
Geezertronic
Established Member
C'mon guys, you're all falling for the OPs trolling trap. Stir it up then watch the masses post back... I've been there with this OP and I've fallen for it before.
That comment sums it up completely, everyone who pays tax should all become non executive directors of the railways and any other public services that our tax payers money gets ploughed into. Any changes that get made anywhere should be voted on so the country grinds to a halt so the OP can get his own way and have a say in everything. In fact, we should all become honorary Prime Ministers as well
Damn, I've fallen for the trolling trap again
That comment sums it up completely, everyone who pays tax should all become non executive directors of the railways and any other public services that our tax payers money gets ploughed into. Any changes that get made anywhere should be voted on so the country grinds to a halt so the OP can get his own way and have a say in everything. In fact, we should all become honorary Prime Ministers as well
Damn, I've fallen for the trolling trap again
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It actually strikes me that not checking tickets all the time is a very good way to get value for taxpayer money. £1 can not be spent twice by the same individual after all
Certainly good value if you have a saver & come back in the evening when no-one's marked the return portion & barriers are open
CarterUSM
Established Member
C'mon guys, you're all falling for the OPs trolling trap. Stir it up then watch the masses post back... I've been there with this OP and I've fallen for it before.
That comment sums it up completely, everyone who pays tax should all become non executive directors of the railways and any other public services that our tax payers money gets ploughed into. Any changes that get made anywhere should be voted on so the country grinds to a halt so the OP can get his own way and have a say in everything. In fact, we should all become honorary Prime Ministers as well
Damn, I've fallen for the trolling trap again
Agreed! I think i'm wasting my breath! For the record Justin, just request from the relevant TOC, the revenue collection information for each guards turn number, and see how far you get.
Solent&Wessex
Established Member
- Joined
- 9 Jul 2009
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- 2,747
I have so far avoided adding any comments to this, but I shall now put my two penneth in:
I am a Guard.
This morning I was working a 6 car set departing at 0716. It is formed of two 3 car units with no gangway connection. It is very busy and carries a mixture of commuters and day trippers depending on the part of the journey concerned. At some stations the train is too long for the platform and I have to operate Unit Door Blocking to ensure that only the doors on the front unit are opened as the back unit is all or partly off the platform. This can only be done from certain door controls so I must ensure I am there to do it.
Despite this I was working the train constantly for the 2hrs 20mins I was on it. I was swapping between the two sets at different times in the journey and did not sit down once in that time. During the journey I had to deal with a drunken tramp who locked himself in the toilet with no money, no ticket and no home address. I also had a passenger with an "Earlybird" (i.e. off peak) season ticket not valid at peak times, who refused to pay for a valid ticket, which required me to get name and address details and write out an Unpaid Fares Notice.
There will be some people on the train whose ticket I will not be able to check during their journey. They may well walk away with this "the Guard is not doing his job properly" attitude. I did however sell around 39 tickets and should my manager choose to download my shift he will see I have been very busy.
I would be extremely angry with someone who tried to tell me I hadn't been working or doing my job properly just because I didn't check their ticket for the time they were on the train.
I am a Guard.
This morning I was working a 6 car set departing at 0716. It is formed of two 3 car units with no gangway connection. It is very busy and carries a mixture of commuters and day trippers depending on the part of the journey concerned. At some stations the train is too long for the platform and I have to operate Unit Door Blocking to ensure that only the doors on the front unit are opened as the back unit is all or partly off the platform. This can only be done from certain door controls so I must ensure I am there to do it.
Despite this I was working the train constantly for the 2hrs 20mins I was on it. I was swapping between the two sets at different times in the journey and did not sit down once in that time. During the journey I had to deal with a drunken tramp who locked himself in the toilet with no money, no ticket and no home address. I also had a passenger with an "Earlybird" (i.e. off peak) season ticket not valid at peak times, who refused to pay for a valid ticket, which required me to get name and address details and write out an Unpaid Fares Notice.
There will be some people on the train whose ticket I will not be able to check during their journey. They may well walk away with this "the Guard is not doing his job properly" attitude. I did however sell around 39 tickets and should my manager choose to download my shift he will see I have been very busy.
I would be extremely angry with someone who tried to tell me I hadn't been working or doing my job properly just because I didn't check their ticket for the time they were on the train.
I don't think anyone "despises" Justin Smith for his comments, so I don't know where anonymous0101 got that idea from.
I do think it is fair to say a lot of people probably think that Justin Smith and one or two others appear to be judging guards without checking their facts, and many people will be aware that just because you have not seen a guard check a ticket, doesn't mean that the guard is being lazy, there could be many reasons and without asking the guard, you just don't know what those reasons may be. But asking the guard without upsetting him/her is not going to be easy.
As kwvr45 said, guards who work extremely hard in the circumstances he described could be angry if someone suggested they were not doing their job properly or were being lazy, and I would be too!
I do think it is fair to say a lot of people probably think that Justin Smith and one or two others appear to be judging guards without checking their facts, and many people will be aware that just because you have not seen a guard check a ticket, doesn't mean that the guard is being lazy, there could be many reasons and without asking the guard, you just don't know what those reasons may be. But asking the guard without upsetting him/her is not going to be easy.
As kwvr45 said, guards who work extremely hard in the circumstances he described could be angry if someone suggested they were not doing their job properly or were being lazy, and I would be too!
craftsmaster
Member
This most likely happens on situation where staff aren't on the actual custody of the employer/agency. Chances are, guards (on particular) acts on their discretion which potentially creates a center based of administrative disorder.
joshuatemprell
New Member
- Joined
- 4 Aug 2010
- Messages
- 1
i am and have been intrested in becoming a train conductor for my years now does any 1 know how i can make this happen or what i need to do
Justin Smith
Established Member
I made a tactical error there, quite apart from anything else adding that comment was just an after thought to the main question, which was genuine curiosity about what is actually said, if anything, to any guard who returns a ticket machine with hardly any tickets sold on it.
If I'm reading the posts on this thread correctly, the answer is, for better or worse, not much.
For the record I do not think that the vast majority of Guards are t*****s, not at all, and if that was the impression given then that's a breakdown in communication. In fact I've removed that word because people are taking it too seriously and therefore it's not the impression I want to give.
Actually, compared to the revenue generated on Inter City routes the ticket sales on shorter suburban/outer suburban runs is minor, it`s probably more significant for accurately judging the usage of those routes. Furthermore most guards usually do check/sell tickets.
But there are times, and we all know this is true, when some guards have ample opportunity to check tickets, but still don`t bother. That offends my idealist sensibilities.
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Geezertronic
Established Member
That last sentence about sums you up really... and that's all I have to say about that
Solent&Wessex
Established Member
- Joined
- 9 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 2,747
I have to say, that I actually tend to agree with this. I am always very keen on my revenue duties and I do find it annoying when I travel on trains when absolutely no effort is made at all. Sadly I find this tends to vary considerably from TOC to TOC and even location to location within those TOCs. For example getting my train to or from work I can always tell the home depot of the Guard by the effort put into revenue collection!!
CarterUSM
Established Member
I agree with it also, in a previous post I mentioned various reasons for not checking tickets, with laziness one of those reasons. If the OP is that offended however, it would be a good idea to comment on it with the relevant customer services instead of going over the same ground here.
Which means the guard opens the door, Closes the door sees the train away from the station remaining at the door until the train has fully left the platform. Keys out makes an annoucement thanks to Health and safety. Picks up a machine opens the door sells a ticket which convieniently is payed for with a £20 note for a £1.80 fare. At the same time is asked for a traintime connection from Crewe which takes a few minutes to process on the advantix.
Low and behold we are nearly at Crewe time for another announcement as Health and Safety insists on approxamatley 2 minutes before a station arrival time to fight his way back to the rear cab to be at the door whilst the train arrives at the station.
the revenue lost is Arriva Wales problem not the guards. They will have figures on what they should sell and whether it is worth putting a revenue inspector on the train. The guards and all frontline staff just do what they can and believe me its a thankless task
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I really dont think laziness comes into it. There will always be the odd few who cant be bothered. You have to remember that just because you are heading off to work at 8.00 am it doesnt mean the guard is. He probally started at nearer 4.00am and is already a few hours into his day. Which may involve a 10 hr shift coupled with a short turnaround. try finishing at 2am saturday night and being back at 3.30 am monday morning see how your bodyclock copes
Perhaps all these trainspotters ought to come and do the job,as they seem to know more than me, and I been a guard for a long time.
I was once hooking off at Bradford Interchange. This was a charter train which I worked from Tinsley to Bradford.
Here I was detaching a class 60 which was on the buffers.
Whilst I was in between hooking off, I was told by a spectator that I was not doing the job properly. (In my time I have hooked on and off thousands of times.)
I asked him what he did for a living to which he answered was a customs officer,
I told him to take his chalk and go put crosses on suitcases, and let me get on with what I do.
It seems that every tom dick and harry can do your job blindfold.
I always recon that a little knowledge is dangerous
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