Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

[Jordan Adam]

That is very true too, no good ploughing an area with new buses if you are going to lose money running them empty all the time, you need to pay for them somehow.

In all honesty the general public can't tell a new bus and a 7 year old bus apart, what makes the difference is the quality of service and the presentation of vehicles. Had Lothian allocated midlife vehicles to ECB they probably would've had similar success.

 

[Swanny200]

In all honesty the general public can't tell a new bus and a 7 year old bus apart, what makes the difference is the quality of service and the presentation of vehicles. Had Lothian allocated midlife vehicles to ECB they probably would've had similar success.

Very true, I remember for a while Lothian had cherished reg's on a couple of their buses, always clean and tidy, I knew it was a Trident and it was a few years old, but it could have been 10 or 12 years old and they would have still made sure it was clean and tidy, however I remember getting on one of First's Livi depot Gemini's and it was manky, both inside and out, wasn't the first time either that I would look out my dining room window in Ladywell and see the back open and some poor driver's head shaking at another bus stopped. I know that Lothian aren't perfect and buses break down, but First were only just ahead of Horsburgh for how they took care of their vehicles when I lived in Livingston, I don't think the Horsburgh fitters ever set foot in the depot, they were always out on the road.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Very true, I remember for a while Lothian had cherished reg's on a couple of their buses, always clean and tidy, I knew it was a Trident and it was a few years old, but it could have been 10 or 12 years old and they would have still made sure it was clean and tidy, however I remember getting on one of First's Livi depot Gemini's and it was manky, both inside and out, wasn't the first time either that I would look out my dining room window in Ladywell and see the back open and some poor driver's head shaking at another bus stopped. I know that Lothian aren't perfect and buses break down, but First were only just ahead of Horsburgh for how they took care of their vehicles when I lived in Livingston, I don't think the Horsburgh fitters ever set foot in the depot, they were always out on the road.

Agree, for years FSE were the laughing stock within First Group. Great progress has been made since the restructuring a few years bacl, but there's still progress to be made. Perhaps that's a discussion for another thread.

I agree Lothian generally keep their older vehicles looking smart too, albeit some of the B7RLEs and Geminis in the original Madder scheme in recent years have looked quite faded and worn.

 

[Swanny200]

I know a driver who used to work for Lothian a few years ago that said that he took a dustpan and brush with him so he could sweep the bus if it was bad between turns at the terminus, he said that he wasn't the only one, he had done it for years.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Very true, I remember for a while Lothian had cherished reg's on a couple of their buses, always clean and tidy, I knew it was a Trident and it was a few years old, but it could have been 10 or 12 years old and they would have still made sure it was clean and tidy, however I remember getting on one of First's Livi depot Gemini's and it was manky, both inside and out, wasn't the first time either that I would look out my dining room window in Ladywell and see the back open and some poor driver's head shaking at another bus stopped. I know that Lothian aren't perfect and buses break down, but First were only just ahead of Horsburgh for how they took care of their vehicles when I lived in Livingston, I don't think the Horsburgh fitters ever set foot in the depot, they were always out on the road.

The first time I visited Edinburgh back in 2015 I was amazed at the state of the First vehicles operating into Edinburgh. Battered T reg Plaxtons and old Royales, they really stuck out like a sore thumb in comparison to Lothian.

My only experience of First prior to that was First Cymru and Bristol, neither of which at the time had recent investment but the difference between those two subsidiaries and Edinburgh I thought was quite remarkable.

 

[scosutsut]

In all honesty the general public can't tell a new bus and a 7 year old bus apart, what makes the difference is the quality of service and the presentation of vehicles. Had Lothian allocated midlife vehicles to ECB they probably would've had similar success.

And to be fair initially in age profile ECBs fleet was directly comparable to the outgoing First one they just blew them away in presentation (even if the livery colour combo they settled on was complete crap imo):

ECB had 2001 Tridents versus 1999-2002 ex London Tridents and B7TLs.
ECB had 2006 (ex Arriva) and 2011 Eclipses versus 2004 Solars (cursed with the worst interiors ever created) and 2007/2009 Eclipses
Only thing that stands out are the ex Airlink 2010 Gemini 2s ECB had and still have.

Nothing brand spanking new though. That's been added since.

You make a good point re vehicle age - doesn't matter to your average punter - if it's on time they will be happy. If it's clean they will be happier. They'll only care if it's got WiFi if their mobile data plan is lousy which is increasingly less of a problem for most these days!

"Give me a seat, get me to where I am going. Don't charge me a fortune. Ta."

 

[PaulMc7]

I think if a bus is clean, comfortable and reliable then it makes it so much easier to get people to use it. Only had a couple of experiences on Lothians services but generally they were pretty good. Just a couple of short journeys between the city centre and the zoo

A good 3/4 years ago now though

 

[cnjb8]

Of course you're going to notice if an ancient First Trident shows up, that it's old. And if a flashy Lothian Gemini shows up, they'll know its a newer vehicle

 

[GusB]

Of course you're going to notice if an ancient First Trident shows up, that it's old. And if a flashy Lothian Gemini shows up, they'll know its a newer vehicle

I'd hazard a guess that the general public wouldn't know, nor care. If it's clean and well presented, inside and out, and doesn't sound like it's going to fall apart the next time it hits a bump in the road, does it really matter how old it is? How many ordinary passengers actually look at the number plate?

 

[PaulMc7]

I'd hazard a guess that the general public wouldn't know, nor care. If it's clean and well presented, inside and out, and doesn't sound like it's going to fall apart the next time it hits a bump in the road, does it really matter how old it is? How many ordinary passengers actually look at the number plate?

Fully agree with this. I can't imagine many non drivers really know much about what reg plates even mean in regards to age etc either. When you wait on a bus you're usually more incline to check what the number is on the front screen and where it's going. Never seen anyone look down at a reg tbh

 

[scosutsut]

If it's clean and well presented, inside and out, and doesn't sound like it's going to fall apart the next time it hits a bump in the road.

Unfortunately towards the end of operations First were failing on all these criteria. Rivets inside and out piecing everything together, tired paintwork, unrefurbished threadbare interiors, frequently musty and dirty too. There was no pride, no attention to detail. It showed, even to those who aren't interested in such things (imo)

 

[Jordan Adam]

Of course you're going to notice if an ancient First Trident shows up, that it's old. And if a flashy Lothian Gemini shows up, they'll know its a newer vehicle

That's irrelevant to the point though. They'll assume the Lothian Gemini is newer because it's better presented, not because it actually is.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Fully agree with this. I can't imagine many non drivers really know much about what reg plates even mean in regards to age etc either. When you wait on a bus you're usually more incline to check what the number is on the front screen and where it's going. Never seen anyone look down at a reg tbh

I haven't had it here, but when I worked in Cardiff I can recall many times passengers made a remark on the vehicle I was driving if it were new, a demonstrator or a different type of vehicle than would normally work their route. One example being a route normally worked by elderly SPDs with me having a 17 plate Citaro - both buses would have been clean and presentable but it still drew comments like 'ooh we've got a posh one today' etc.

I think it's a little unfair to say the travelling public lack awareness of the difference between older and newer vehicle types and it doesn't leave any impression on them.

If it were the case that nobody cared how old a bus was as long as it was clean operators wouldn't be investing in higher and higher specification interiors to satisfy customers expectations and attract more people out of their cars.

 

[oldman]

Additionally the Dunbar service is on a lower frequency (30 Mins) than it was under First (20 Mins).

I think it's been a long long while since First ran every 20 mins to Dunbar - latterly it was just 1 an hour with peak extras, though for some years there was a second via Tranent.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I think it's been a long long while since First ran every 20 mins to Dunbar - latterly it was just 1 an hour with peak extras, though for some years there was a second via Tranent.

I have a timetable somewhere from around 2014/15 and there was 3 buses per hour, albeit it wasn't that consistent. Not that it matters much, the point still stands that the reason for ECB's success wasn't just "better" vehicles, it was due to reductions within the city.

 

[route101]

Of course you're going to notice if an ancient First Trident shows up, that it's old. And if a flashy Lothian Gemini shows up, they'll know its a newer vehicle

First Trident and Lothian Trident was night and day.

 

[Jordan Adam]

First Trident and Lothian Trident was night and day.

First Tridents had been hammered for years in London and then round the estates of Glasgow. Lothians weren't exactly great either, saw them quite a number of times spewing out black smoke and not sounding exactly healthy.

Then there's also the fact First's were mostly Euro 2 examples whereas Lothians were mostly Euro 3 with the far superior later ISC engine. Even within Stagecoach the difference between Euro2 and Euro3 examples was like night and day.

 

[VioletEclipse]

I'm guessing that's all pre 57 Eclipses (150 and below) and all non-ECB B7TLs leaving the service fleet before they have a chance to see service again?
Would be sad, especially as my fave bus (138) is part of them, but even 07 plates are coming up to 13.5 years now so I guess they're time in the fleet is limited anyway.

It seems that the new singles will be filling up the fleet numbers 66-95 left by the Darts, and I wonder if the new doubles (when they eventually arrive) will fill up any vacancies like 290-300, 438-440, 511-550, 595-825, 961-999 or continue from 1154 upwards.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I'm guessing that's all pre 57 Eclipses (150 and below) and all non-ECB B7TLs leaving the service fleet before they have a chance to see service again?
Would be sad, especially as my fave bus (138) is part of them, but even 07 plates are coming up to 13.5 years now so I guess they're time in the fleet is limited anyway.

It seems that the new singles will be filling up the fleet numbers 66-95 left by the Darts, and I wonder if the new doubles (when they eventually arrive) will fill up any vacancies like 290-300, 438-440, 511-550, 595-825, 961-999 or continue from 1154 upwards.

I'd suppose it would depend on how many vehicles will be required with any further service changes until the new deckers are delivered?

 

[Lothiangem22]

I’ve been lucky enough to catch a glimpse of one of the new single decks and they look fantastic. They are going to be a great addition to the fleet and give a really high end feel.
Unfortunately I think it would be foolish to go into detail though hopefully we will see them enter service soon.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I’ve been lucky enough to catch a glimpse of one of the new single decks and they look fantastic. They are going to be a great addition to the fleet and give a really high end feel.
Unfortunately I think it would be foolish to go into detail though hopefully we will see them enter service soon.

I've only one question - are they hybrid or regular diesel?

 

[Jordan Adam]

I've only one question - are they hybrid or regular diesel?

B8RLE, so diesel.

 

[overthewater]

Are they Alexander bodies?

 

[cnjb8]

I’ve been lucky enough to catch a glimpse of one of the new single decks and they look fantastic. They are going to be a great addition to the fleet and give a really high end feel.
Unfortunately I think it would be foolish to go into detail though hopefully we will see them enter service soon.

I'm still confused about wether they are Evora's or Enviros.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'm still confused about wether they are Evora's or Enviros.

I think you're chances of finding out on this thread are slim unless some photos appear online... The classic Lothian "brag about seeing it but stay sworn to secrecy" has struck again.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I’ve been lucky enough to catch a glimpse of one of the new single decks and they look fantastic. They are going to be a great addition to the fleet and give a really high end feel.
Unfortunately I think it would be foolish to go into detail though hopefully we will see them enter service soon.

I don't think it is foolish to say if its an ADL body or not. Either way, lucky you, and I cannot wait for them to go on the road!

 

[Graham Alexand]

I’ve been lucky enough to catch a glimpse of one of the new single decks and they look fantastic. They are going to be a great addition to the fleet and give a really high end feel.
Unfortunately I think it would be foolish to go into detail though hopefully we will see them enter service soon.

Do you have a picture of it?

 

[DunsBus]

I'm still confused about wether they are Evora's or Enviros.

Why not just wait and see.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Do you have a picture of it?

It would be awesome if he did but I doubt that he does. He also feels it would be foolish to give too much detail away.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It would be awesome if he did but I doubt that he does. He also feels it would be foolish to give too much detail away.

Probably because like many other people who are claiming to see them they've likely not. This happens every time Lothian gets a new vehicle type...