Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

[Jordan Adam]

Was it supposed to be First withdrawing from there and Lothian providing the replacement bus services, with no connection in between?

The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) had issue with Lothian buying out First's East Lothian division. Likely because it gave Lothian an "unfair" monopoly on the Musselburgh corridor. I think most people at the time (including Lothian) knew this would happen however. In the end Lothian launching ECB has clearly been beneficial for most bus users in the region! Especially given how lacklustre First's operation was back then.

 

[Observer]

Also at least 6 single deck buses have been sold to Horsburghs. A move which sees them veering away from lightweight single deckers, i know they have 1 eclipse but this is their first mass move towards heavy singles.

Fleet numbers to follow.

Replacing elderly Solos with....just as elderly Volvos! Unless they've just been bought for smaller school runs rather than service.

Then again, probably got a good deal on them, especially considering the amount of double deckers they got off them this year.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Replacing elderly Solos with....just as elderly Volvos! Unless they've just been bought for smaller school runs rather than service.

Then again, probably got a good deal on them, especially considering the amount of double deckers they got off them this year.

depends if they’ve replaced solos though, they could be for new/additional work

they only got 6 deckers total, i wouldn’t say thats a big amount

 

[OmniCity999]

depends if they’ve replaced solos though, they could be for new/additional work

they only got 6 deckers total, i wouldn’t say thats a big amount

i think the point Observer is making is it's a big investment. Roughly ~£100,000 in investment.

 

[Jordan Adam]

i think the point Observer is making is it's a big investment. Roughly ~£100,000 in investment.

Impressive for a company like Horsburgh. Shame they can't show the same level of investment on their existing vehicles....

 

[ScotRail158725]

Impressive for a company like Horsburgh. Shame they can't show the same level of investment on their existing vehicles....

to be fair to them at least they’re getting rid of said vehicles. god knows how some of those olympians were still in tact or allowed on the road

 

[Jordan Adam]

to be fair to them at least they’re getting rid of said vehicles. god knows how some of those olympians were still in tact or allowed on the road

I don't think those will be going, not if it's B7RLEs they've bought.

 

[Observer]

to be fair to them at least they’re getting rid of said vehicles. god knows how some of those olympians were still in tact or allowed on the road

As long as West Lothian Council allowed for them, they could do whatever they wanted, and didn't have to be forced to upgrade compared to other councils' contracts where they did have to get newer stock.

Just remember how all those ex-Lothian double deckers showed up....in the midst of a public inquiry!

They could have bought Lothian's Tridents years ago when they were up for sale, but didn't do that...

 

[scotrail158713]

In the end Lothian launching ECB has clearly been beneficial for most bus users in the region! Especially given how lacklustre First's operation was back then.

Absolutely. I do have my complaints sometimes, but overall it’s a much better offering than First gave.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Absolutely. I do have my complaints sometimes, but overall it’s a much better offering than First gave.

Indeed, i do wish it was possible for CMA to take the potential benefits in to consideration, however at the same time i can understand back in 2016 we didn't really know how it would go, it's only now with hindsight that we can see it was beneficial.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) had issue with Lothian buying out First's East Lothian division. Likely because it gave Lothian an "unfair" monopoly on the Musselburgh corridor. I think most people at the time (including Lothian) knew this would happen however. In the end Lothian launching ECB has clearly been beneficial for most bus users in the region! Especially given how lacklustre First's operation was back then.

I live at the eastern edge of Musselburgh - the ECB service is far superior to First's offering for us with the integrated ticketing with LB is critical to the utility of the bus service.

 

[LiviCrazy]

The CMA report is actually an interesting read.
CMA Report

 

[OmniCity999]

One has to think that the reason behind the half hearted expansion into West Lothian was so that Lothian weren't seen as an unfair purchaser and they believe that that may have been on the cards.

I guess what I'm saying is, Lothian have done a terrible job out West, but maybe on purpose, so that any future investigations by the CMA rule in their favour.

Or maybe I just know too much...

 

[scosutsut]

The CMA report is actually an interesting read.
CMA Report

Really interesting read, thanks for linking. At first I was like "what merger" but it explains it really well.

It leaves you wondering who submitted the low ball offer to First and then dropped it when they were told no. When I saw they wanted all the fleet as well as staff and depots a name that rhymes with McPills immediately jumped to mind!

 

[OmniCity999]

Really interesting read, thanks for linking. At first I was like "what merger" but it explains it really well.

It leaves you wondering who submitted the low ball offer to First and then dropped it when they were told no. When I saw they wanted all the fleet as well as staff and depots a name that rhymes with McPills immediately jumped to mind!

An East Lothian based company, not a West Coast company, you'd be surprised!

 

[Jordan Adam]

An East Lothian based company, not a West Coast company, you'd be surprised!

Could've been Horsburgh.

That would've went very well i'm sure...

 

[scosutsut]

An East Lothian based company, not a West Coast company, you'd be surprised!

The mystery deepens! As that's not a long list to choose from, and no clear candidate jumps out at me!

Could've been Horsburgh.

That would be one way to get people to ask for First back!

 

[OmniCity999]

Could've been Horsburgh.

That would've went very well i'm sure...

The mystery deepens! As that's not a long list to choose from, and no clear candidate jumps out at me!


That would be one way to get people to ask for First back!

Im not going to openly share it on a public forum, but it was definitely 'an East Lothian company'...

 

[Swanny200]

In this sort of situation, when First pulled out of East Lothian, did they have any schools contracts and if they did, do they go out for retender or if someone comes in and buys all the assets, can they technically take over the school runs?

 

[OmniCity999]

In this sort of situation, when First pulled out of East Lothian, did they have any schools contracts and if they did, do they go out for retender or if someone comes in and buys all the assets, can they technically take over the school runs?

They had School runs that were covered by short running services, which East Coast picked up and still run. But i believe their all commercially run.

 

[Swanny200]

They had School runs that were covered by short running services, which East Coast picked up and still run. But i believe their all commercially run.

See I would have thought that it would have been retendered, I used to work for a couple of the West Lothian taxi companies in their offices and school runs were always being retendered because drivers stopped or one of the companies changed hands etc... I wasn't sure if it worked the same way in terms of bus journeys as it did with taxi and minibus work.

 

[scosutsut]

Im not going to openly share it on a public forum, but it was definitely 'an East Lothian company'...

That's what I figured and I knew better than to directly ask!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2020 ==

See I would have thought that it would have been retendered, I used to work for a couple of the West Lothian taxi companies in their offices and school runs were always being retendered because drivers stopped or one of the companies changed hands etc... I wasn't sure if it worked the same way in terms of bus journeys as it did with taxi and minibus work.

It can only be retendered if it was tendered, which it sounds like it wasn't.

 

[Swanny200]

That's what I figured and I knew better than to directly ask!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2020 ==


It can only be retendered if it was tendered, which it sounds like it wasn't.

I know some of the drivers got the runs off their own back, but I know that bus drivers can't really do that so did wonder how the process worked, so technically it does make sense that a bus company that just does the odd town service and has a few school runs could lowball a bigger company in trouble if they have a decent fleet (albeit some of First's was not) staff including drivers and a depot.

 

[Observer]

Those taxi drivers would have tendered for it themselves as owner operators, meaning they couldn't be transferred.

 

[CN04NRJ]

An East Lothian based company, not a West Coast company, you'd be surprised!

I think we can all agree it was best all around that Lothian took it though whoever else may potentially have been after it.

Shows what investment and good management can achieve with what was unviable with the 'other operator' ( )

 

[Jordan Adam]

Shows what investment and good management can achieve with what was unviable with the 'other operator' ( )

While i do agree that ECB are far superior than First East Lothian ever were. This is perhaps not the most fair argument, Lothian did reduce the city services in the Musselburgh corridor after ECB was launched, hence passenger numbers within the city are higher making the service more viable. Additionally the Dunbar service is on a lower frequency (30 Mins) than it was under First (20 Mins).

 

[scosutsut]

While i do agree that ECB are far superior than First East Lothian ever were. This is perhaps not the most fair argument, Lothian did reduce the city services in the Musselburgh corridor after ECB was launched, hence passenger numbers within the city are higher making the service more viable. Additionally the Dunbar service is on a lower frequency (30 Mins) than it was under First (20 Mins).

It's also merged in with the Haddington run, rather than separate runs, which is to its detriment timing and capacity wise which is a shame as pre COVID I would have used it otherwise.

Fleet and presentation is night and day though, helps that ECB invested heavily in new vehicles.

First was only there because they had to be, and it showed.

 

[Swanny200]

I suppose those in E Lothian for a while must have felt like the poor, First were still running around in Alexander bodied Royales while Lothian were running around in Gemini's, and their fleet being renewed year upon year, although in the end First got their own Gemini's, but they also got a lot of castoffs from other depot's too and you still saw the Royales being driven around while in the West, they had better stuff, for someone who doesn't know how it works they would see Livingston Depot Firstbus the same as Musselburgh Depot Firstbus and wonder "How come they get all the good stuff"

 

[Jordan Adam]

It's also merged in with the Haddington run, rather than separate runs, which is to its detriment timing and capacity wise which is a shame as pre COVID I would have used it otherwise.

Fleet and presentation is night and day though, helps that ECB invested heavily in new vehicles.

First was only there because they had to be, and it showed.

Indeed. I Agree, ECB have transformed bus services in the region. My point was that when it comes to the viability there's more to it than simply Lothian investing, Lothian "City" reducing services combined with the better integration is the biggest factor in the success of ECB.

 

[Swanny200]

Indeed. I Agree, ECB have transformed bus services in the region. My point was that when it comes to the viability there's more to it than simply Lothian investing, Lothian "City" reducing services combined with the better integration is the biggest factor in the success of ECB.

That is very true too, no good ploughing an area with new buses if you are going to lose money running them empty all the time, you need to pay for them somehow.