UK face coverings discussion

[DB]

What is so special about Scottish 5-11 years old that sets them apart from children from other countries? Everywhere else under 12s are not required to wear a mask, yet in Scotland it's the under 5s.

One-upmanship - Nicola Sturgeon wanting to show that she is taking things further than Boris Johnson.

 

[LAX54]

I had an interesting conversation with someone who works at a local hospital yesterday. It seems at least in our local trust that there is a growing internal consensus that face coverings do little good, and indeed incorrect use could likely be a greater source of infection. Also there is growing opinion that the idea of aerosol transmission through regular breathing, talking etc is unlikely to be a major source, with surface contact & people coughing / sneezing being thought to much more likely the major source. Just as was thought right back at the beginning. All anecdotal I know, but nonetheless interesting to hear healthcare staff questioning the consensus.

Also there is apparently growing concern over the amount of PPE currently in use, and more importantly being discarded. With masks & visors now being used in unprecedented numbers a vast amount of unrecyclable(?) decarded equipment is being created. Not exactly great for the environment, but also not great for budgets already stretched.

and there is certainly a lot of incorrect use, that is for sure !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2020 ==

The mortality rates of covid19 have been overstated by poor data capture by government bodies and hysterical reporting by the mass media
This analysis by an organisation shows a lethality between 0.1% and 0.3% which is in the range of a severe influenza
(https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/)

In the season 2017/2018 there over 50,000 excess deaths and yet the hysteria levels didn't rise and none of the measures currently in force were introduced

But there are many people that say you cannot compare 2017/18 'as that was different' by what means I do no know, except that FB/Twitter/BBC News ignored it ! Threre was doom and gloom spread by posts on Facebook saying that if you catch it you will die ! seems Italy and China have said they over reacated, and everyone followed like sheep, there is also a big fuss over Florida, yet overall the Florida figures are on a par with most other Countries, and yes of course Florida / Texas / California are bigger than some European Countries! Maine on the East ofn the USA is 3500 miles from San Diego, and London is 1200 miles from Rome !

 

[MikeWM]

You have to scroll down a long way on both the Guardian and BBC homepages to see any masked people today, which must be the first time in many months that you're not confronted with them immediately.

I suspect it doesn't mean much, but mildly interesting perhaps.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Just a thought regarding schools... If the UKGov aren't even considering making them mandatory in workplaces, why on earth are ScotGov considering them in schools? The thought of sitting in a stifling hot classroom for 6 hours wearing something that will make little to no difference is not appealing in the slightest. The kids will be fiddling with them constantly too. I suppose I'm glad my University lectures will be online, in the short-term anyway, because there's no way I could sit in a lecture theatre for 2/3 hours wearing one.

And don't start with the "I work in the NHS, I wear mine for 10 hours a day!" nonsense - because that's what you signed up for. And there's evidence that masks work in clinical settings - the same can't be said for face coverings in non-clinical settings - it's not done just to suit the vocal minority (the Facebook Furloughs and the Unions).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just a thought regarding schools... If the UKGov aren't even considering making them mandatory in workplaces, why on earth are ScotGov considering them in schools?

Because schools cram kids in much tighter than offices do? And for tighter-packed workplaces prone to it (food packing plants etc) wearing would be a good idea.

 

[43066]

And there's evidence that masks work in clinical settings - the same can't be said for face coverings in non-clinical settings - it's not done just to suit the vocal minority (the Facebook Furloughs and the Unions).

A point that is sadly lost on the mask enthusiasts!

 

[Richard Scott]

The big problem with masks in schools is not being able to see facial expressions, it's extremely important to assess understanding. I hate seeing youngsters in masks. Where is the science behind this then or it is just something else because someone in Scotland somewhere contracted the virus? This woman really does cause concern with her actions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hate seeing youngsters in masks.

Dare I suggest that whether you or I like to see it or not is not in any way relevant to the decision?

 

[Journeyman]

Masks may be seen as mitigation to the small but nonzero risk that causes.

Kids will quite happily wear masks, particularly if they can choose or even design their own. It's adults who are hand-wringing about it (as ever). Kids actually like wearing PPE - they think putting a helmet on to go climbing or whatever is cool. They'll do what they are asked and get on with their day.

But they don't have to wear masks in most situations, and don't have to socially distance in *any* situations, so it *is* ridiculous.

Once again, your authoritarian streak and love of petty rules emerges. I find it pretty obnoxious.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

And don't start with the "I work in the NHS, I wear mine for 10 hours a day!" nonsense - because that's what you signed up for. And there's evidence that masks work in clinical settings - the same can't be said for face coverings in non-clinical settings - it's not done just to suit the vocal minority (the Facebook Furloughs and the Unions).

If this is aimed at me then you're wrong - I did not sign up to the NHS to wear a mask 24/7. And wearing a mask is not mandated in my contract. Until Covid, I chose to wear a mask/gloves when I felt it was clinically appropriate; e.g. dealing with a patient with MRSA, open wounds etc.

Face masks do not work in all clinical settings. Please provide a link for this evidence

 

[adc82140]

And don't start with the "I work in the NHS, I wear mine for 10 hours a day!" nonsense - because that's what you signed up for. And there's evidence that masks work in clinical settings - the same can't be said for face coverings in non-clinical settings - it's not done just to suit the vocal minority (the Facebook Furloughs and the Unions).

I work in the NHS. I wear one for 12 hours a day. However I am working in close contact with vulnerable people, and also in air con. I dislike wearing one outside work, and oppose their mandation on the grounds of shaky evidence outside clinical settings, and as such I'm avoiding shops etc. as much as I can. In addition, they are of value in the NHS because they are 3 layered surgical masks worn properly by trained people, with new ones in plentiful supply when needed, not old bits of mucky cloth half hanging off your face.

 

[Bantamzen]

Masks may be seen as mitigation to the small but nonzero risk that causes.

Kids will quite happily wear masks, particularly if they can choose or even design their own. It's adults who are hand-wringing about it (as ever). Kids actually like wearing PPE - they think putting a helmet on to go climbing or whatever is cool. They'll do what they are asked and get on with their day.

Kids like wearing masks when they want to. I promise you know if you try to make them wear them at school, many will be very unhappy. And I suspect schools would have a "mask code" and not just allow them to wear want they wanted.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

If this is aimed at me then you're wrong - I did not sign up to the NHS to wear a mask 24/7. And wearing a mask is not mandated in my contract. Until Covid, I chose to wear a mask/gloves when I felt it was clinically appropriate; e.g. dealing with a patient with MRSA, open wounds etc.

Face masks do not work in all clinical settings. Please provide a link for this evidence

No - it was not aimed at you specifically. Wearing a mask in a clinical setting should be expected to mitigate infection - it's one of the whole host of hygiene control measures in place in clinical settings, along with replacing them regularly and good hand hygiene. I also expect that the majority, if not all clinical staff are briefed/trained in the use of PPE - something the general public have not.

I did not explicitly say that they work in all clinical settings.

I work in the NHS. I wear one for 12 hours a day. However I am working in close contact with vulnerable people, and also in air con. I dislike wearing one outside work, and oppose their mandation on the grounds of shaky evidence outside clinical settings, and as such I'm avoiding shops etc. as much as I can. In addition, they are of value in the NHS because they are 3 layered surgical masks worn properly by trained people, with new ones in plentiful supply when needed, not old bits of mucky cloth half hanging off your face.

Precisely this.

Because schools cram kids in much tighter than offices do? And for tighter-packed workplaces prone to it (food packing plants etc) wearing would be a good idea.

Right, ok. What do you do about the constant fiddling, and potential misuse of face coverings? Is your idea to punish the kids for not wearing one correctly? Moreover, as @DavidB suggests, teachers rely on facial expressions to gauge understanding.

And do you have evidence that they will work - not just make parents "feel safe"?

Dare I suggest that whether you or I like to see it or not is not in any way relevant to the decision?

Pot, kettle, black. You seem to love the idea, I'm not sure why that's relevant either. As I said, use the scientific evidence and not the opinions of the vocal minority.

 

[Domh245]

Dare I suggest that whether you or I like to see it or not is not in any way relevant to the decision?

Seeing as the government appear to be being led by people's feelings rather than any particular clinical evidence, there is a degree of relevance

 

[scotrail158713]

One-upmanship - Nicola Sturgeon wanting to show that she is taking things further than Boris Johnson.

Absolutely. I don’t mind her extra caution - to a certain extent (I’d prefer somewhere between her and Boris Johnson) - however there are certain things (this being one) that is completely unnecessary and OTT.

 

[Wuffle]

This is an interesting blog post by Dr Orr working in Severalls in Colchester
It does have some references in the article

( http://12160.info/m/blogpost?id=2649739:BlogPost:2035264 )

 

[Richard Scott]

Dare I suggest that whether you or I like to see it or not is not in any way relevant to the decision?

No it won't but why shouldn't I express my opinion?

 

[43066]

I hate referencing the Mail but this has appeared:

Man who was haranguing rail staff for not wearing masks is knocked out

Police are investigating after a passenger who was arguing with Clapham Junction staff about face masks was knocked out by a man in a grey hoodie.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere

I hope the assaulter is convicted of both assault and given a fixed penalty for not wearing a mask (unless exempt). It is totally unacceptable to escalate to physical violence in a situation other than in defence of already-used violence or serious physical threat, however annoying.

(And I do agree with him on staff; the law should include them as well, subject to the same legal exemptions - though the way to express disquiet on that is formal complaints to TOCs and via your MP, not abusing staff which is also never acceptable)

At least one poster on this thread earlier said he challenges people who are not wearing masks. This is exactly where that kind of behaviour can lead - being knocked out cold.

Not that I condone violence, but this is a great advert for why it’s a good idea to simply mind your own business when travelling on public transport. You never know who might just be the wrong button to push!

 

[trainophile]

I have observed a bit of a phenomenon recently - people boarding the train take a seat then glance around surreptitiously, and if there is no-one in eye contact range, or no-one wearing a mask properly, they either take theirs off or slip it down to their chin or under their nose.

I think the authorities would have a shock if they realised the level of abuse of this unenforceable rule. I was even told by a guard the other day not to worry about putting mine back on (I'd had a drink from my water bottle) as he wasn't wearing one and didn't see why anyone else should.

 

[DB]

I think the authorities would have a shock if they realised the level of abuse of this unenforceable rule.

They will be well aware, and won't care. It's only really intended to be seen to be doing something and to give 'confidence' to the terrified...

 

[talldave]

They will be well aware, and won't care. It's only really intended to be seen to be doing something and to give 'confidence' to the terrified...

Who won't see because they're locked away in their bunkers!

 

[yorkie]

Seems to be a mixed bag of responses on The Courier Facebook page, with some parents claiming they'll take their kids out of school if they have to wear them and others claiming that they (i.e. the parents) will "feel" so much "safer" if it goes ahead.

If I worked in a school in Scotland, and this was enacted and I was told I had to wear a mask if I was to continue to work there, I'd probably tell my employer that I had no intention of continuing to work there if it was a requirement.

Would this count as varying the terms of employment? Would any staff in this position be entitled to redundancy pay or any other compensation?

 

[43066]

If I worked in a school in Scotland, and this was enacted and I was told I had to wear a mask if I was to continue to work there, I'd probably tell my employer that I had no intention of continuing to work there if it was a requirement.

Would this count as varying the terms of employment? Would any staff in this position be entitled to redundancy pay or any other compensation?

Difficult to see how it could be enforced. My employer now “requires” us to wear masks when walking around stations, passing on trains etc. Net result? Things are exactly the same as they were before - those who wish to wear masks do so, those who don’t, don’t!

Any employer trying to enforce this kind of thing is going to be sailing close to the wind in terms of disability legislation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it won't but why shouldn't I express my opinion?

You can if you like

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The big problem with masks in schools is not being able to see facial expressions, it's extremely important to assess understanding. I hate seeing youngsters in masks. Where is the science behind this then or it is just something else because someone in Scotland somewhere contracted the virus? This woman really does cause concern with her actions.

‘Now now, settle down children, and welcome back to Eyemouth High School. I know this is a little different, but it’s good to see that you’re all wearing your masks, even young McKay, who has ‘We Don’t Need No Education’ embroidered on his.
Now hands up anyone who can tell me why McKay’s cousin, who is the same age, and goes to school in Berwick Upon Tweed, just under 9 miles away, does NOT have to wear a mask ?

Anyone???? ‘

 

[Meole]

They will be following the Welsh Assembly rules which are way different to England. So regardless to what we think of TfW it will always be a high figure until their law changes.

Over 700 now on TFW feed, cannot copy link sorry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

‘Now now, settle down children, and welcome back to Eyemouth High School. I know this is a little different, but it’s good to see that you’re all wearing your masks, even young McKay, who has ‘We Don’t Need No Education’ embroidered on his.
Now hands up anyone who can tell me why McKay’s cousin, who is the same age, and goes to school in Berwick Upon Tweed, just under 9 miles away, does NOT have to wear a mask ?

Anyone???? ‘

A useful learning experience about how different countries look to achieve the same sort of end by way of slightly different laws? Then lead onto a discussion about different approaches?

 

[yorkie]

A useful learning experience about how different countries look to achieve the same sort of end by way of slightly different laws? Then lead onto a discussion about different approaches?

I don't think your appetite for going off topic will be quite so appreciated by most teachers

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think your appetite for going off topic will be quite so appreciated by most teachers

Fair point.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

A useful learning experience about how different countries look to achieve the same sort of end by way of slightly different laws? Then lead onto a discussion about different approaches?

And when they go into the Physics class, ask ‘if there is even an infinitesimally small risk of being struck by lightning in the playground, it is still a risk nonetheless, so why are Faraday Cages not mandatory in all outdoor settings?’