Are Glasgow to Oban services still operating the full route?

[DB]

The pupils used to travel by bus but Scotrail won the tender so they are contracted to convey them. Before that this train didn't exist. Why on earth would anyone, in the current climate, put themselves at additional risk on a train full of kids who have no requirement to socially distsnce, when a replacement is being provided where you can keep yourself safe and will be in the company of very few people. It's a 20 yard, flat transfer to the coach at Dalmally. You'll be on the coach before the train even leaves and it's been working perfectly well for the last week and a half. The only place there are problems with it is on this forum! (and bikes can go on the bus)

Perhaps some people aren't bothered about this elusive concept of keeping themselves "safe"...

 

[packermac]

The pupils used to travel by bus but Scotrail won the tender so they are contracted to convey them. Before that this train didn't exist. Why on earth would anyone, in the current climate, put themselves at additional risk on a train full of kids who have no requirement to socially distsnce, when a replacement is being provided where you can keep yourself safe and will be in the company of very few people. It's a 20 yard, flat transfer to the coach at Dalmally. You'll be on the coach before the train even leaves and it's been working perfectly well for the last week and a half. The only place there are problems with it is on this forum! (and bikes can go on the bus)

I fully agree, although if you read most of the threads related to Covid on here there is no issue, it is all a government scare tactic "to control the masses"

 

[geoffk]

There are approx 130 kids on the train so it is full and threre are no spare units to make it a 4 car. As it is a school contract paid for by Argyll and Bute council they have stipulated its for kids only. The 16.11 to Dalmally always was but ran as a normal passenger service anyway. Is actually quicker anyway on the bus so I dont see anyone objecting. Its only temporary after all.

Scotrail won't want to lose the scholars' traffic, I expect. Following on from Oldman's post #34, will there be a similar issue on the Whitby school train? Not sure how many children travel on it, and I think they all go to Sleights and Ruswarp.

 

[oldman]

The official guidance is that only dedicated school transport does not require social distancing. No doubt this was intended for buses rather than trains, but the principle is the same. If you want 100+ on a 2 car dmu, you need to make it dedicated school transport.

 

[BayPaul]

How is this controversial? Scotrail has put on an additional train for schoolchildren. They've also historically opened it up to the public, giving a useful extra service. Now, in exceptional circumstances, following sensible government guidelines, they are reserving part of the journey for school children only, have provided a replacement bus service that takes a similar amount of time, with a simple change, and which will impact a very small number of people, along with some probably mythical bikes and dogs, and have provided appropriate communications to make this clear.

Tbh, anyone who finds this unacceptable is being rather selfish in the current situation.

 

[GaryBrown156]

I think you’re being a little bit unfair here.

Post #8 answers the question of numbers. I think that it would be next to near impossible to implement social distancing for the normal passengers with 130 schoolchildren boarding between Dalmally and Oban on a 2-coach train which this is. It isn’t 4-coach.

It isn’t happening for “no reason” - it is an effort to implement social distancing on the section where the loading dictates it is needed.

I would agree that the journey planner should highlight the requirement to change at Dalmally, and the text in the the red box should specify the 05:20 service, but beyond that it is pretty clear that it’s only for schoolkids on that section.



Regarding changing, do bear in mind that there is no footbridge to cross, and the train has a six minute wait at Dalmally so it wouldn’t be a rush to change if that is the issue.

These are really difficult times and I think we all need to cut the operators some slack, as plans are having to be done “on the hoof” so to speak to deal with the effects of the pandemic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2020 ==


We are talking about maybe 5 people max per train, probably less that would have to change at Dalmally.

Why focus on something that, let’s be honest, is highly unlikely to actually happen?

I suspect that faced with the choice between being crammed into a 2-coach train with 130 kids or socially distancing on a coach for a short period of time, that pretty much everyone would choose the latter in the current circumstances.

I take on board the points you have made but I still think that the current arrangement isn't ideal (passengers having to switch from one mode of transport on to another mid journey imo unnecessarily). However the poor communication and poor wording on the Scotrail website is by far my biggest gripe. As I said previously there is a mention of a school only service between Dalmally and Oban however this notice is ambiguous and open to interpretation/misinterpretation. It doesn't specify which timetabled services this affects (if any) so it could be interpreted as any of the following: there is a dedicated school train running between Dalmally and Oban (not included in the timetable), passengers travelling to/from intermediate stations between Dalmally and Oban will have to use a rail replacement bus (but not necessarily passengers boarding from stations before Dalmally travelling to Oban). It is far from clear that this change of transport applies to passengers aboard the 5.20 from queen street and that those passengers will be asked/forced to disembark at Dalmally. At least 3 of the Scotrail staff in Queen street also don't appear to be that this is "the deal" so if members of staff aren't receiving or understanding the message then what chance does joe public have?. If they had just pinned a message to the 5.20 service saying: "This service terminates at Dalmally, a rail replacement bus will operate onward journeys to Oban and intermediate stations". That would at least avoid any ambiguity or confusion.

Regarding my family situation, there are various medical conditions which would make changing from one mode of transport on to another mid journey extremely stressful and impractical.
West coast motors operate a perfectly decent coach alternative to the train between Glasgow and Oban (which has a comparable journey time to the train) so if a coach was sufficient for purposes we would most probably have booked on that instead of the train (especially as two of our family members would be eligible for free travel so it would be the cheaper option). The reason we travel by train is because it is more open, spacious, less claustrophobic and easier to access than a bus/coach and because it arrives in Oban at an early time which allows us to make onward connections to our final destination at a more suitable time.
I wasn't aware that this service was operated by a single 156 (a 2 car train). Up until 2 years ago I used to be a semi regular on this service and it has definitely operated as a 4 car train on more than one occasion. One journey which sticks in my mind was having to use the toilet mid trip whereby I noticed it was out of order much to my dismay. Fortunately the conductor was passing at the time and she advised me to use the facilities in the other carriage (something which wouldn't be possible on a single 156 unit which only has 1 toilet). Iirc a single 156 has somewhere in the region of 150-160 seats so even in a single unit there should still be adequate provision for 100-130 school kids plus a handful of passengers. even with social distancing I don't believe a rail replacement bus is necessary (apart from perhaps for a handful of commuters from Connel Ferry and Taynuilt). Given the choice I know my family would prefer to remain on the train (even with 100+ school kids) until Oban, however since that doesn't appear to be an option we will have to look into alternative arrangements.

Myself and my family are disappointed (to say the least) but its better that we now now than getting a nasty surprise on the day. Yes sometimes unfortunate stuff happens but when it does the operator should be as clear as possible with customers (which I don't believe Scotrail has in this case).
For the avoidance of doubt, I would like to clarify that I am not having "a go" at the Scotrail employees on the ground. I believe most of them do an excellent job and have found many of them to be very friendly, helpful and accommodating of mine and my families disabilities in the past.

 

[RT4038]

I take on board the points you have made but I still think that the current arrangement isn't ideal (passengers having to switch from one mode of transport on to another mid journey imo unnecessarily). However the poor communication and poor wording on the Scotrail website is by far my biggest gripe. As I said previously there is a mention of a school only service between Dalmally and Oban however this notice is ambiguous and open to interpretation/misinterpretation. It doesn't specify which timetabled services this affects (if any) so it could be interpreted as any of the following: there is a dedicated school train running between Dalmally and Oban (not included in the timetable), passengers travelling to/from intermediate stations between Dalmally and Oban will have to use a rail replacement bus (but not necessarily passengers boarding from stations before Dalmally travelling to Oban). It is far from clear that this change of transport applies to passengers aboard the 5.20 from queen street and that those passengers will be asked/forced to disembark at Dalmally. At least 3 of the Scotrail staff in Queen street also don't appear to be that this is "the deal" so if members of staff aren't receiving or understanding the message then what chance does joe public have?. If they had just pinned a message to the 5.20 service saying: "This service terminates at Dalmally, a rail replacement bus will operate onward journeys to Oban and intermediate stations". That would at least avoid any ambiguity or confusion.

Regarding my family situation, there are various medical conditions which would make changing from one mode of transport on to another mid journey extremely stressful and impractical.
West coast motors operate a perfectly decent coach alternative to the train between Glasgow and Oban (which has a comparable journey time to the train) so if a coach was sufficient for purposes we would most probably have booked on that instead of the train (especially as two of our family members would be eligible for free travel so it would be the cheaper option). The reason we travel by train is because it is more open, spacious, less claustrophobic and easier to access than a bus/coach and because it arrives in Oban at an early time which allows us to make onward connections to our final destination at a more suitable time.
I wasn't aware that this service was operated by a single 156 (a 2 car train). Up until 2 years ago I used to be a semi regular on this service and it has definitely operated as a 4 car train on more than one occasion. One journey which sticks in my mind was having to use the toilet mid trip whereby I noticed it was out of order much to my dismay. Fortunately the conductor was passing at the time and she advised me to use the facilities in the other carriage (something which wouldn't be possible on a single 156 unit which only has 1 toilet). Iirc a single 156 has somewhere in the region of 150-160 seats so even in a single unit there should still be adequate provision for 100-130 school kids plus a handful of passengers. even with social distancing I don't believe a rail replacement bus is necessary (apart from perhaps for a handful of commuters from Connel Ferry and Taynuilt). Given the choice I know my family would prefer to remain on the train (even with 100+ school kids) until Oban, however since that doesn't appear to be an option we will have to look into alternative arrangements.

Myself and my family are disappointed (to say the least) but its better that we now now than getting a nasty surprise on the day. Yes sometimes unfortunate stuff happens but when it does the operator should be as clear as possible with customers (which I don't believe Scotrail has in this case).
For the avoidance of doubt, I would like to clarify that I am not having "a go" at the Scotrail employees on the ground. I believe most of them do an excellent job and have found many of them to be very friendly, helpful and accommodating of mine and my families disabilities in the past.

As you say, unfortunate stuff happens, and as a result replacement bus services are required. Consider this to be one of those circumstances. It certainly isn't worth 30 odd lines. If it is such a big problem, just travel on one of the other services which run each day.

 

[Robertj21a]

View attachment 82494

I'm struggling to see what some people think is unclear about the statement in red.

 

[gnolife]

I'm struggling to see what some people think is unclear about the statement in red.

That it doesn't state which train it applies to. It is also not stateing explicitly that all other passengers must alight at Dalmally and get the bus (although the implication is there)

 

[XAM2175]

With regards to the availability of information - I imagine that this exact circumstance probably wasn't really considered when the electronic timetables were being designed and configured, so the best they can really do is attach an informational message to the entire service, rather than (for example) showing it as terminating at Dalmally with a connecting bus as this would cause it to appear cancelled for school students.

I agree that the message illustrated in post 19 is ambiguous not in its wording but in its applicability - it seems to refer to every train shown on the screen. Checking National Rail Enquiries, on the other hand, shows the message only appears when viewing the the 0520 train specifically:

At least 3 of the Scotrail staff in Queen street also don't appear to be that this is "the deal" so if members of staff aren't receiving or understanding the message then what chance does joe public have?

Having worked at similar coal-faces before, with all the will in the world this sort of message (a change to one part of one particular service that is only in effect in one out-of-the-way corner of the timetable) is not going to be high on the radar for most staff. By no means ideal, but I think understandable to an extent.

 

[scotraildriver]

It only shows up if you specifically search before 5.20am. It's really not that hard is it?

 

[XAM2175]

It only shows up if you specifically search before 5.20am. It's really not that hard is it?

In that view everything's fine - but when the search includes the 0520 I think you can agree that it could be read as applying to all the services shown, no?

 

[alistairlees]

In that view everything's fine - but when the search includes the 0520 I think you can agree that it could be read as applying to all the services shown, no?

No I can’t agree. It’s obvious that it’s for the 05.20 service. And that’s despite NRE’s terrible user interface.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

All of the screenshots clearly say "0 changes".

So is a change required or not?

 

[Bald Rick]

What is the policy if you get a passenger refusing to vacate the train at Dalmally and demanding to remain on with the schoolkids?

One hopes anyone pursuing such a course of action would be treated as a school child on arrival at Oban, sent to see the Headmaster, and given a fortnight’s detention, applicable immediately.

 

[David Goddard]

All of the screenshots clearly say "0 changes".

So is a change required or not?

Yes it is, the note in the warning triangle advises this.
Perhaps they could have made it clearer by terminating 1Y31 at Dalmally, then set the leg to Oban as a charter (ie 1Z31) from there to Oban, which would have forced the journey planner to show a change onto the waiting bus. School Children would then be advised to stay on.
The bus leaves ten minutes after the train arrives so plenty of time to change, but it would help if the train was routed into platform 1 to avoid crossing the line.

 

[XAM2175]

No I can’t agree. It’s obvious that it’s for the 05.20 service. And that’s despite NRE’s terrible user interface.

I'm not sure what you're responding to here - I believe the desktop NRE interface example I posted conveys clearly the specific applicability, but scotraildriver's example doesn't.

All of the screenshots clearly say "0 changes". So is a change required or not?

This is something I guessed at in my first reply - I doubt that the electronic timetable is designed to allow for this kind of eventuality because the service is technically running as booked. Ergo the journey planner shows "0 changes", and the alteration (that non-student passengers must change at Dalmally) is only applied as general notice of disruption.

 

[theironroad]

I hope there'll be a deep clean of the train and all high risk contact points are cleaned between these highly contaminated adults leaving the train and before the precious children are allowed to board and that suitable segregation and social distancing measures will be in place at Dalmally with security staff in place to ensure that the two groups don't come into contact with each other.

 

[30907]

Regarding my family situation, there are various medical conditions which would make changing from one mode of transport on to another mid journey extremely stressful and impractical.

In the circumstances, I would have thought you should request travel assistance (to which you would be entitled, surely?) from Scotrail so that the issues involved in transferring to road transport can be mitigated.

 

[sjoh]

Regarding our own plans this will most definitely have quite an impact as changing from a train on to a bus at Dalmally is impractical so will mean having to catch a later service, will have a knock on impact on transport at the Oban side and most likely result in us losing a full day.

Okay, I'm not going to ask you what the impracticality of swapping from a train to a bus is, because it's inappropriate to ask you to divulge what might be sensitive and personal information in a public forum. HOWEVER - if you're impracticality is for reasons of disability, then I can assure you that all you need do is make it clear to Scotrail staff whilst booking your journey and they will assist you to the absolute best of their ability. This is a legal requirement.

Yes it does, this whole situation is ridiculous.
Why don't ScotRail stick the kids on the RRB so paying passengers from Glasgow aren't affected

I don't live in that part of the world, so I don't know whether the train service is simply contracted to run by the local authority to provide school children a service, or whether the local authority actually pays for the young people to travel. In either case, the journeys they are making are still paid for. Your "paying passengers" argument is therefore null.
There's a very good reason why it's advantageous to allow the school children to use the train separately to other paying passengers - and that is that capacity wise, there are far more of them than there are passengers who would otherwise be using the line (from Glasgow or otherwise). One train with all the young people on it, separated from moving a relative minority of adults (who are more vulnerable to symptomatic infection) who can easily travel in a socially distanced manner by coach is clearly a much more efficient means of dealing with competing needs.

 

[scotraildriver]

Yes it is, the note in the warning triangle advises this.
Perhaps they could have made it clearer by terminating 1Y31 at Dalmally, then set the leg to Oban as a charter (ie 1Z31) from there to Oban, which would have forced the journey planner to show a change onto the waiting bus. School Children would then be advised to stay on.
The bus leaves ten minutes after the train arrives so plenty of time to change, but it would help if the train was routed into platform 1 to avoid crossing the line.

You can't access platform 1 from the South without manually pumping across then clamping and scotching the points, or obtain a shunt token and carry out a shunt manoeuvre, both of which would cause considerable delay.

 

[David Goddard]

You can't access platform 1 from the South without manually pumping across then clamping and scotching the points, or obtain a shunt token and carry out a shunt manoeuvre, both of which would cause considerable delay.

Thanks for that. Are they sprung or something similar?

 

[scotraildriver]

Yes

 

[Scotrail314209]

I do like the idea someone suggested of altering 1Y31 to terminate at Dalmally, with the next leg being 1Z31. It would help with making it clearer to people that they will need to change at Dalmally.

Perhaps you could also put something on the departure screens along the lines of: "Passengers for Oban should board the replacement bus at Dalmally."

 

[scotraildriver]

I do like the idea someone suggested of altering 1Y31 to terminate at Dalmally, with the next leg being 1Z31. It would help with making it clearer to people that they will need to change at Dalmally.

Perhaps you could also put something on the departure screens along the lines of: "Passengers for Oban should board the replacement bus at Dalmally."

It does say that on the screens at Queen St and every other station.

 

[Class 170101]

I am actually surprised Scotrail can offer this under DDA (or subsequent rules) as I would be surprised there is level boarding at Dalmally so mobility impaired people probably shouldn't be doing this, nevermind those with bikes or dogs or lots of luggage.

 

[Ianno87]

I am actually surprised Scotrail can offer this under DDA (or subsequent rules) as I would be surprised there is level boarding at Dalmally so mobility impaired people probably shouldn't be doing this, nevermind those with bikes or dogs or lots of luggage.

..or, in the unlikely event a wheelchair user wishes to use this specific train, they will just remain in the accessible space through to Oban, distanced from the school kids. (i.e. they wouldn't be expected to change at Dalmally)

 

[Class 170101]

..or, in the unlikely event a wheelchair user wishes to use this specific train, they will just remain in the accessible space through to Oban, distanced from the school kids. (i.e. they wouldn't be expected to change at Dalmally)

This is what I would expect however common sense seems to have gone out of the window lately.

 

[BrianW]

Wow! Just 'tuned in' to this thread. So many words expended, so much energy, so much 'hot air'? I have a lot of sympathy with OP Gary156, and with everyone else, who I imagine are trying to do the right thing, not all unfeeling Jobsworths who couldn't care less. I would be irritated too.
I'm glad the kids are in school- they've a load of shxx to put up with for us old gits' benefit. The staff too in the frontline- in the trenches, lives on the line for us ungrateful whatsits.
I would be irritated if I has had my journey disrupted in relation to the Stonehaven tragedy; three people died.
Can we count our blessings and live our days with some gratitude? You'll feel better for it.
I'm still enjoying in my head the views along that line when I invested in a Spirit of Scotland ticket last year. Great memories. I had hopes for this year ...

 

[Gathursty]

One hopes anyone pursuing such a course of action would be treated as a school child on arrival at Oban, sent to see the Headmaster, and given a fortnight’s detention, applicable immediately.

Haha! Double maths and double outdoors PE in the dreich weather yomping up and down the Oban hills.