Are Glasgow to Oban services still operating the full route?

[BrianW]

Haha! Double maths and double outdoors PE in the dreich weather yomping up and down the Oban hills.

I'm picturing the train being held at Dalmally for as long as takes (I'm not budging; I've got all day) until Gary156 (aka 'Piggy') 'sees sense' and capitulates to the mob of 'Lord of the Flies' schoolkids baying for blood, desperate to get to skool for their edgercation , by alighting in highest dudgeon.

 

[Bald Rick]

Haha! Double maths and double outdoors PE in the dreich weather yomping up and down the Oban hills.

Some people would be happy with the latter (self included).

 

[30907]

I'm picturing the train being held at Dalmally for as long as takes (I'm not budging; I've got all day) until Gary156 (aka 'Piggy') 'sees sense' and capitulates to the mob of 'Lord of the Flies' schoolkids baying for blood, desperate to get to skool for their edgercation , by alighting in highest dudgeon.

To be fair, I am not sure the OP has suggested they would do this themselves.

 

[theironroad]

There are approx 130 kids on the train so it is full and threre are no spare units to make it a 4 car. As it is a school contract paid for by Argyll and Bute council they have stipulated its for kids only. The 16.11 to Dalmally always was but ran as a normal passenger service anyway. Is actually quicker anyway on the bus so I dont see anyone objecting. Its only temporary after all.

Pretty much all journeys from Glasgow/central belt to the west coast are quicker by road, whether car or public coach.

The whole rail route through to Mallaig/Oban needs to attract more passengers I'd imagine to stay viable. A few tenuous freight flows a week to fort William can't justify it either.

I realise that this decision is outwith Scotrail's control and keeping the council school contract is obviously beneficial to the line as well.

I'd hate to see the WHL line close as it's a great scenic ride, but I dare to think what the true public subsidy is per passenger for both Scotrail and Network Rail Scotland already. In a post Stonehaven world, I'd imagine that a shed load of money is going to need to be spent on the WHL to improve its weather resilience.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Pretty much all journeys from Glasgow/central belt to the west coast are quicker by road, whether car or public coach.

The whole rail route through to Mallaig/Oban needs to attract more passengers I'd imagine to stay viable. A few tenuous freight flows a week to fort William can't justify it either.

I realise that this decision is outwith Scotrail's control and keeping the council school contract is obviously beneficial to the line as well.

I'd hate to see the WHL line close as it's a great scenic ride, but I dare to think what the true public subsidy is per passenger for both Scotrail and Network Rail Scotland already. In a post Stonehaven world, I'd imagine that a shed load of money is going to need to be spent on the WHL to improve its weather resilience.

Pre COVID the demand for the WHL was very good, with the 0823, 1037, 1223 and 1637 departures being busy.

The 08:23 Mallaig portion is also very well loaded, it empties out at Fort William then gets busier again.

 

[theironroad]

Pre COVID the demand for the WHL was very good, with the 0823, 1037, 1223 and 1637 departures being busy.

The 08:23 Mallaig portion is also very well loaded, it empties out at Fort William then gets busier again.

That's good to hear, hopefully numbers will recover.

Also with luck and a following wind, tourism (especially from overseas) will recover as well.

Although separate, I wonder how the Jacobite has fared since they restarted?

 

[jfisher21]

I caught the 0520 to Oban last May. Boarded at Ardlui. Train was empty so not too much to worry about!

 

[Mathieu]

Seems crazy that they have the power to refuse travel between Dalmally and Oban to anyone except pupils yet not remove people on trains who clearly aren't wearing masks and have no reason not too.

 

[Ianno87]

Seems crazy that they have the power to refuse travel between Dalmally and Oban to anyone except pupils yet not remove people on trains who clearly aren't wearing masks and have no reason not too.

Nobody is being "refused travel" between Dalmally and Oban. A bus is being provided, and most people are capable of being pragmatic about this, especially in that part of the world.

 

[BrianW]

To be fair, I am not sure the OP has suggested they would do this themselves.

Sorry; not meaning to disrepect or accuse- maybe I got a bit carried away with the imagery ... have added this apology at #61 too.

 

[snookertam]

I'm struggling to see what some people think is unclear about the statement in red.

Because they want to make a big fuss about their ‘rights’.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==

Pretty much all journeys from Glasgow/central belt to the west coast are quicker by road, whether car or public coach.

The whole rail route through to Mallaig/Oban needs to attract more passengers I'd imagine to stay viable. A few tenuous freight flows a week to fort William can't justify it either.

I realise that this decision is outwith Scotrail's control and keeping the council school contract is obviously beneficial to the line as well.

I'd hate to see the WHL line close as it's a great scenic ride, but I dare to think what the true public subsidy is per passenger for both Scotrail and Network Rail Scotland already. In a post Stonehaven world, I'd imagine that a shed load of money is going to need to be spent on the WHL to improve its weather resilience.

There is absolutely no prospect of the West Highland Line being threatened by closure. Even at its busiest, I doubt the line will ever be viable on its own but that’s not the point. It contributes to the local economy, brings in visitors to the area, provides jobs (both in wider tourism and in the railway).

The line will not be closed under any circumstances and certainly not because Argyll & Bute Council have stipulated that an early morning train is for schoolchildren only due to distancing requirements brought on by Covid.

 

[najaB]

The line will not be closed under any circumstances...

Just wanted to point out that there's a difference between "under no threat of closure" and "will never close" - forever is a long time for circumstances to change.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I'd hate to see the WHL line close as it's a great scenic ride, but I dare to think what the true public subsidy is per passenger for both Scotrail and Network Rail Scotland already. In a post Stonehaven world, I'd imagine that a shed load of money is going to need to be spent on the WHL to improve its weather resilience.

I doubt it'd make financial sense to close the West Highland line, as neglected as it is, it's a lifeline for the region, and it'd end up costing the government and council far more in the long run through the effects on the local people and the economy. Even if it did make financial sense, culturally the line is too important, it'd be politically unfeasible to ever close it.

It's a disgrace though that one of the longest train services in Scotland is served by ageing sprinters. The route badly needs upgrading to the standards of other Scotrail Intercity routes.

 

[najaB]

The route badly needs upgrading to the standards of other Scotrail Intercity routes.

I agree that the 156s aren't great, but inter-city stock is designed to isolate the passenger from the environment as much as possible. On a scenic, rural line like the WHL where a high proportion of passengers are tourists, you need to play to the strengths. Nobody is taking the train because it's the fastest way to get from A to B. With that in mind, it's probably better to look at what other 'pretty' lines around the world have done wrt to their rolling stock, rather than the Intercity routes in Scotland.

 

[theironroad]

Because they want to make a big fuss about their ‘rights’.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==



There is absolutely no prospect of the West Highland Line being threatened by closure. Even at its busiest, I doubt the line will ever be viable on its own but that’s not the point. It contributes to the local economy, brings in visitors to the area, provides jobs (both in wider tourism and in the railway).

The line will not be closed under any circumstances and certainly not because Argyll & Bute Council have stipulated that an early morning train is for schoolchildren only due to distancing requirements brought on by Covid.

Haha, love your foresight that then line will never be closed under any circumstances... Bet many people in the decade before Beeching thought the same.

Although I realise this may have been a drift OT for this thread, I certainly wasn't suggesting a temporary stipulation by the council in their contract would mean the closure of the WHL, that's a pretty ridiculous deduction to be honest.

I doubt it'd make financial sense to close the West Highland line, as neglected as it is, it's a lifeline for the region, and it'd end up costing the government and council far more in the long run through the effects on the local people and the economy. Even if it did make financial sense, culturally the line is too important, it'd be politically unfeasible to ever close it.

It's a disgrace though that one of the longest train services in Scotland is served by ageing sprinters. The route badly needs upgrading to the standards of other Scotrail Intercity routes.

Agree that politically it would be very hard to shut the line regardless of the economics, similarly with the heavily subsidised sleeper.

Also, agree that the rolling stock isn't great for such a long journey, for something like glq to fort or Oban, marginally better with the refurbished trains but still could be a lot better.

I wonder if the open Access operator that's started out on the S&C will try to set up on the WHL (or a part of it at least, )maybe offering shorter day trips from a Glasgow area station to Oban or across Rannoch moor in ex first class carriages with better catering aimed squarely at the tourist market. Guess with Oban/Fort being the only towns for a couple of hour stopover before returning, it'd make a longish day esp if coming from Edinburgh area.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I agree that the 156s aren't great, but inter-city stock is designed to isolate the passenger from the environment as much as possible. On a scenic, rural line like the WHL where a high proportion of passengers are tourists, you need to play to the strengths. Nobody is taking the train because it's the fastest way to get from A to B. With that in mind, it's probably better to look at what other 'pretty' lines around the world have done wrt to their rolling stock, rather than the Intercity routes in Scotland.

That's not entirely true, locals in the West Highlands use the train a lot. It's the main route to Glasgow for most of them and they're all too aware that the route is painfully slow in places.

In terms of isolating passengers from the environment - the bad door seals and opening windows are the only things that make the trains any different. Tourists insisting on keeping these open and letting in the cold, wind and the rain are unlikely to be popular.

I'm sure tourists would also like to be isolated from the poor ride quality over the even poorer quality rails underneath, they'd probably prefer decent catering, working toilets and better seats too...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==

I wonder if the open Access operator that's started out on the S&C will try to set up on the WHL (or a part of it at least, )maybe offering shorter day trips from a Glasgow area station to Oban or across Rannoch moor in ex first class carriages with better catering aimed squarely at the tourist market. Guess with Oban/Fort being the only towns for a couple of hour stopover before returning, it'd make a longish day esp if coming from Edinburgh area.

Why just aim at the tourist market? Locals would love a service that's less of an ordeal than the current one.

 

[theironroad]

I agree that the 156s aren't great, but inter-city stock is designed to isolate the passenger from the environment as much as possible. On a scenic, rural line like the WHL where a high proportion of passengers are tourists, you need to play to the strengths. Nobody is taking the train because it's the fastest way to get from A to B. With that in mind, it's probably better to look at what other 'pretty' lines around the world have done wrt to their rolling stock, rather than the Intercity routes in Scotland.

Whether it would be viable to have dedicated tourist stock with a lot more glass, including canopy roofs or even outdoor caboose style carriage, to take full advantage of the brilliant scenery all around I'm not sure, but agree needs to play to strengths.

I'm guessing the ex first class being used on s&c was available for low cost as think they are the ex Anglia stock which was surplus.

I can't recall the details, but didn't the current SR bid have plans for tourist trains and even their own steam excursions.

 

[najaB]

That's not entirely true, locals in the West Highlands use the train a lot. It's the main route to Glasgow for most of them and they're all too aware that the route is painfully slow in places.

"A high proportion" is not "all" or "most". Even the locals don't take the train because it's the fastest way, but rather because it's more reliable or convenient.

In terms of isolating passengers from the environment - the bad door seals and opening windows are the only things that make the trains any different.

The Intercity brand and concept is based around being whisked from city centre to city centre in speed and quiet comfort while the outside world passes in a blur. Quite the opposite experience that a lot of the passengers using the WHL are after.

I'm sure tourists would also like to be isolated from the poor ride quality over the even poorer quality rails underneath, they'd probably prefer decent catering, working toilets and better seats too.

Your comment was about the rolling stock, rather than the infrastructure. And I'm sure that the other "pretty lines" that I referenced have working toilets and comfortable seats so I don't get what you're objecting to about my post.

 

[theironroad]

That's not entirely true, locals in the West Highlands use the train a lot. It's the main route to Glasgow for most of them and they're all too aware that the route is painfully slow in places.

In terms of isolating passengers from the environment - the bad door seals and opening windows are the only things that make the trains any different. Tourists insisting on keeping these open and letting in the cold, wind and the rain are unlikely to be popular.

I'm sure tourists would also like to be isolated from the poor ride quality over the even poorer quality rails underneath, they'd probably prefer decent catering, working toilets and better seats too...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==


Why just aim at the tourist market? Locals would love a service that's less of an ordeal than the current one.

Of course, I'm not local but I remember couple years ago being on an unrefurbished sprinter with questionable heating in January and it was more a test of endurance than pleasure. It'd be nice to grow the market as well as the locals and tourists who do actually want to go all the way, but to get people out for day trips who don't 'need' to get from a to b.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

"A high proportion" is not "all" or "most". Even the locals don't take the train because it's the fastest way, but rather because it's more reliable or convenient.
The Intercity brand and concept is based around being whisked from city centre to city centre in speed and quiet comfort while the outside world passes in a blur. Quite the opposite experience that a lot of the passengers using the WHL are after.
Your comment was about the rolling stock, rather than the infrastructure. And I'm sure that the other "pretty lines" that I referenced have working toilets and comfortable seats so I don't get what you're objecting to about my post.

My objection is mostly that you seem to be reflecting the mood among many people that the West Highland line is some kind of glorified train-set or tourist attraction, rather than a lifeline service to an otherwise rather isolated region. Other than the height of summer the majority of passengers on the line are locals, and contrary to what you said an awful lot of them actually are using it because it's the fastest way to get from A to B.

As has been said before, the current rolling stock is unsuitable and the journey is very long. A lot of the locals would appreciate speed and quiet comfort if that were an option. While it's not a good line for Scotrail's Inter7City sets the passengers on the route deserve an equivalent level of comfort. I'm sure the tourists as well as the locals would appreciate better onboard catering as well as first class.

I can't see how intercity coaches would cut passengers off from the environment any more than a 156 really.

Of course, I'm not local but I remember couple years ago being on an unrefurbished sprinter with questionable heating in January and it was more a test of endurance than pleasure. It'd be nice to grow the market as well as the locals and tourists who do actually want to go all the way, but to get people out for day trips who don't 'need' to get from a to b.

Yes that's my experience too, was picked up at Corrour after a walk in the hills in midwinter and the interior temperature was very low, and the seals of the window by my seat were bad, so there was a draft of -5 degree wind coming in. I was only on for a few stops but it wasn't pleasant, it really wouldn't have been a good experience travelling the whole length of the line that day.

 

[LowLevel]

Try French branchlines which are subject to frequent substitution with buses or even closure with hardly any notice

What a load of wibble this thread is.

Train was introduced for school kids as local authority tender. Train is a 2 car 156 with a nominal social distancing capacity of approximately 70. School kids number 130 approx and need to be carried as a contractual matter, with social distancing maximum not applying if the train is dedicated to their use.

Thus a suitable replacement for the train is provided for the handful of others who may wish to make the journey.

In this case, while unusual in the UK, the train is effectively the same as a bus for scholars available to the general public, which are pretty common in some areas and also I believe currently not available to the general public.

Then we have 3 pages complaining about it, magicking up bikes, dogs, and theoretical sit ins in the bleak Highlands while undertaking a rousing singalong of "we shall not be moved" while the driver and guard lean on a fence and drink tea.

Rarely have I come across more obliging people than rural Scots. I am quite sure that if you turned up with a bike or a dog, and were polite about the matter, one way or another you would be sorted out.

It is what it is, just get on with it for goodness sake.

 

[najaB]

Other than the height of summer the majority of passengers on the line are locals, and contrary to what you said an awful lot of them actually are using it because it's the fastest way to get from A to B.

I'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. You complain that the route is painfully slow, and then say that it's the fastest way from A to B. A quick check with a travel planner confirms what I already knew: Oban to Glasgow is almost an hour longer by train as compared to road.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. You complain that the route is painfully slow, and then say that it's the fastest way from A to B. A quick check with a travel planner confirms what I already knew: Oban to Glasgow is almost an hour longer by train as compared to road.

Which.... Is not much use if you don't have a car....

 

[snookertam]

Which.... Is not much use if you don't have a car....

Agreed, it’s actually a similar time by bus.

Would suggest someone taking 2 hours to drive Oban to Glasgow might be driving a bit recklessly.

 

[mcmad]

According to Google, car take ~2hrs 18min, the bus between 2hrs 38 and 3hrs 4mins and train is the slowest at 3hrs 1min and 3hrs 15 mins.

So bus is marginally quicker but not much in it.

Glitter Unicorns arguments that it needs a major upgrade in both infrastructure and stock potentially could backfire when the costs involved are realised on top of the cost of increased resilience against climate change.

While I agree that there is no likelyhood of the line shutting at present, a multimillion pricetag associated with the above at a time when other routes also need similar investment might be the straw that breaks the camels back

 

[rangersac]

As someone who lived in Oban for a number of years I can tell you than a 2hr 20min drive from the centre of Oban to the centre of Glasgow is possible in ideal circumstances (and I have driven it faster than that, but was 'ahem' taking some liberties in terms of speed limits), but factor in a bit of traffic congestion, weather (fairly common around those parts) and the seasonally numerous caravan/ tourist drivers, and you can kiss that journey time goodbye. As for uncle Google suggesting that the bus can take 2hrs 38min the timetable would indicate otherwise.

As has been said before, the current rolling stock is unsuitable and the journey is very long. A lot of the locals would appreciate speed and quiet comfort if that were an option. While it's not a good line for Scotrail's Inter7City sets the passengers on the route deserve an equivalent level of comfort. I'm sure the tourists as well as the locals would appreciate better onboard catering as well as first class.

Quite. I do find the level of admiration on this forum for the venerable 156 class somewhat amusing, as I am 99.999916% certain that those members have never had to spend 3+hrs cooped up on a dark January morning in a unit with ice stuck to the window frames, thanks to the heating running at half rat power. That's before we get to the noisy, fume ridden ambiance, with seats that require a visit to the physio if you are taller than 5'10". I am yet to experience the joys of the recent refurbs as I no longer live there (last trip on the WHL was in 2018) but the expression polishing a turd does spring to mind.

Whilst the line is never going to receive major infrastructure upgrades given the number of trains, demand for the services was always considerable when I lived in the area. I am sure a rolling stock upgrade would be welcomed by all users, with decent luggage space and catering options guaranteed to be well received. Additionally given the twisty, hilly nature of the route having stock with better acceleration than the wheezy old asthmatic 156s would probably quite feasibly knock 10-15 minutes off the journey time which would be a bonus.

 

[InOban]

The scheduled coach time is 3 hours. Last time I took it, 3.30. and no delay repay!
Gone are the days when I could make Balloch in 1.30.

 

[Sunset route]

Try French branchlines which are subject to frequent substitution with buses or even closure with hardly any notice

What a load of wibble this thread is.

Train was introduced for school kids as local authority tender. Train is a 2 car 156 with a nominal social distancing capacity of approximately 70. School kids number 130 approx and need to be carried as a contractual matter, with social distancing maximum not applying if the train is dedicated to their use.

Thus a suitable replacement for the train is provided for the handful of others who may wish to make the journey.

In this case, while unusual in the UK, the train is effectively the same as a bus for scholars available to the general public, which are pretty common in some areas and also I believe currently not available to the general public.

Then we have 3 pages complaining about it, magicking up bikes, dogs, and theoretical sit ins in the bleak Highlands while undertaking a rousing singalong of "we shall not be moved" while the driver and guard lean on a fence and drink tea.

Rarely have I come across more obliging people than rural Scots. I am quite sure that if you turned up with a bike or a dog, and were polite about the matter, one way or another you would be sorted out.

It is what it is, just get on with it for goodness sake.

Where’s the like button.

 

[route101]

The scheduled coach time is 3 hours. Last time I took it, 3.30. and no delay repay!
Gone are the days when I could make Balloch in 1.30.

Coach is not frequent, not sure if its any cheaper too.