Fare Rise January 2021

[Llandudno]

There needs to be a national campaign to get passengers back on the rails, and to that end those pax need a full timetable, facilities fully open and maybe some incentives. Dunno what those incentives could be - in the past daily and local newspapers have carried vouchers and such like, maybe something along those lines?

The first thing they could do to regain public confidence is reinstate the full timetable and ensure that there is enough stock and staff to operate it.

Reliability is key!

Then try and fast track some of the future service and frequency enhancements.

 

[Haywain]

c) Decrease the costs of the railway; service and staffing cuts.

I can certainly see this one happening. Subtle cuts in services by not restoring everything back to pre-Covid levels and staff cuts through natural wastage and cutting recruitment (the latter is already happening). The service cuts will have the bonus of helping reliability so can be spun as a positive thing.

 

[Horizon22]

The first thing they could do to regain public confidence is reinstate the full timetable and ensure that there is enough stock and staff to operate it.

Reliability is key!

Then try and fast track some of the future service and frequency enhancements.

But that is also more expensive with no guarantee more revenue would be gained. Even before lockdown officially started for 2 weeks many trains across London & SE were carting around fresh air in the peak.

 

[35B]

These increases are the DfT, the Treasury and the railway collectively not so much shooting themselves in the foot as machine gunning themselves all over.

If TOCs apply the permitted rise voluntarily, then they may be shooting themselves in the foot. As DfT aren’t a business, and the Treasury are basically the government’s expenditure controllers, I suggest it’s not their feet being machine gunned.

 

[MadCommuter]

It's unlikely my office will return this year and due to the financial position, more home working is likely. Therefore, I probably won't be buying an annual season ticket ever again. So I would be looking for a flexible ticket otherwise I'll probably just drive.

 

[DB]

I’m bemused by anybody that thinks the ‘do not travel’ advice came from the TOCs. They’re all being run by the DfT, that messaging has come straight from there. The railways would love nothing more than to have trains full of people again.

So why has messaging from TOCs often varied from the official government advice, and from that of other TOCs?

 

[Haywain]

So why has messaging from TOCs often varied from the official government advice, and from that of other TOCs?

Because the DfT are new to cat herding?

 

[DB]

Because the DfT are new to cat herding?

Hardly! They have extensive experience in micro-management!

In any case, the claim was "that messaging has come straight from there" (i.e. the DfT) - which given that many TOCs' have been giving messages which differ from both the official DfT messaging amd from other TOCs isn't really credible.

And as for

The railways would love nothing more than to have trains full of people again

I can only say that if this is the case then some TOCs are managing to hide this view exceptionall well!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

We do not need an increase in fuel duty.

If the railways don't want our business, people have to use their cars and that is the last thing they need

I am not saying we NEED it. You can let the railways go bust and make Beeching look like a vicars tea party - or subsidize them heavily. Who pays - the tax payer. One way or another someone pays.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And events at TfL show that ignoring inflation will catch you out eventually, with rising costs and a stagnant fare box, giving dire consequences for the funding of the service. TfL has effectively lost control of its operation to DfT, in return for a bailout to cater for the Mayor's fares freeze and then the Covid downturn in usage.

TfL didn't have a stagnant fare box- Travelcards weren't frozen, regardless of the political headline. All their issues were due to Covid, just as it has been for everyone else in the transport industry.

Everything else has been political, trying to give Khan a bloody nose.

The TOCs haven't been lambasted for poor management, even though Covid is the biggest example of privatising profit and nationalising risk we've ever seen*.

(*I'm not saying it is wrong to bail out the TOCs- I agree with bailing them out- but I find it fascinating that TfL very publicly got "a bailout" but the TOCs' help hasn't even been publicly acknowledged)

Certainly seems to be a debatable point as to whether it has effectively been less hassle for the TOCs to be carting fresh air around whilst the Emergency Measures Agreements have been in place; those Open Access operators who weren't in receipt of such funding do seem to have promptly shut up shop.

I don't think "hassle" comes into it, but if you get paid regardless, why hurry back to a normal service?

If TOCs apply the permitted rise voluntarily, then they may be shooting themselves in the foot. As DfT aren’t a business, and the Treasury are basically the government’s expenditure controllers, I suggest it’s not their feet being machine gunned.

Regulated fares are only an issue for TOCs with a lot of season ticket holders- so the London commuter belt, and Northern. For everyone else, regulated fares stopped being relevant a long time ago. There's no scrutiny of Anytime and Advance fares, so they will be set at the maximum the market will tolerate.

Rail travel becoming a distress purchase- which the social distancing and mask rules guarantee- will only cause non-regulated fares to rise even faster.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Everything else has been political, trying to give Khan a bloody nose.
The TOCs haven't been lambasted for poor management, even though Covid is the biggest example of privatising profit and nationalising risk we've ever seen*.

I never thought I would agree with you but ----- YES

 

[Wolfie]

Agreed - great for a political headline grabber but in the real world not so good.

Strongly disagreed. TfL finances were stable, albeit fragile, until CV-19. The Govt are playing political games hoping to benefit the Tory Mayoral candidate. The Mayor screwed them big time by releasing the DfT letter which contained demands the Govt had specifically denied making. Most people l know in London are determined to make the Tories pay a major political price.
Oh, the mood in London, given some of the comments from the North, is to chop as much subsidy (that is money raised in tax in London going elsewhere) as possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2020 ==

TfL didn't have a stagnant fare box- Travelcards weren't frozen, regardless of the political headline. All their issues were due to Covid, just as it has been for everyone else in the transport industry.

Everything else has been political, trying to give Khan a bloody nose.

The TOCs haven't been lambasted for poor management, even though Covid is the biggest example of privatising profit and nationalising risk we've ever seen*.

(*I'm not saying it is wrong to bail out the TOCs- I agree with bailing them out- but I find it fascinating that TfL very publicly got "a bailout" but the TOCs' help hasn't even been publicly acknowledged)



I don't think "hassle" comes into it, but if you get paid regardless, why hurry back to a normal service?



Regulated fares are only an issue for TOCs with a lot of season ticket holders- so the London commuter belt, and Northern. For everyone else, regulated fares stopped being relevant a long time ago. There's no scrutiny of Anytime and Advance fares, so they will be set at the maximum the market will tolerate.

Rail travel becoming a distress purchase- which the social distancing and mask rules guarantee- will only cause non-regulated fares to rise even faster.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

People always bring this up when this subject is mentioned but I am very skeptical. My feeling is that it is only "discredited" in the sense that a lower value (which the CPI always is) looks better because the general public don't realise the extent to which the value of their money is being constantly eroded. My (admittedly very superficial) understanding is that whereas the RPI would continuously compare the price of say, a pair of hand-made shoes over many years, the CPI would come in and say no, the typical consumer can no longer afford those and would trade down to cheaper factory-made shoes, so we'll substitute them and that (and other similar substitutions over the years) has the effect of the CPI making it look like the purchasing power of money is being eroded at a lesser rate than it really is. I have probably grossly oversimplified things there and may have got it a bit wrong.

I don't think the issue is particularly intellectual.
The government is increasingly using CPI for the indexing of benefits (because it is lower), so the theory is that it should also use CPI for things like rail fares.
The DfT has considered this but says it would mean using CPI as the basis for salary increases in the rail industry.
The unions went apoplectic.