Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[jamesst]

Obviously they are being cautious there's probably insurance reasons as well as if anything goes wrong with passengers on board during testing would be a massive negative PR as people complain more than they praise, the Echo would have a field day filling columns of stranded passengers train failures etc.

Liverpool Echo:
"New train fiasco, passenger stuck on board for hours miles from help"
"Major panic on failed new train, Peter from Kirkby fainted, Granny from Southport has panic attack"

Facebook:
"Scrap the new trains, waste of money waa waaa waa etc"

Better to be later and get it right first time than to play catch up.

And the important fact in that its driver managers driving it, no actual drivers or guards have yet been near one to even consider it getting close to passenger service...

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the important fact in that its driver managers driving it, no actual drivers or guards have yet been near one to even consider it getting close to passenger service...

Have they even worked out what exactly the guards are going to do yet, i.e. are they going to be safety-critical but OBS style, or are they going to close only or open and close or do some sort of dispatch with the driver pressing the button (perhaps Voyager style 10 bell)?

 

[Trains Trains]

safety critical I think

 

[jamesst]

Have they even worked out what exactly the guards are going to do yet, i.e. are they going to be safety-critical but OBS style, or are they going to close only or open and close or do some sort of dispatch with the driver pressing the button (perhaps Voyager style 10 bell)?

The driver does the very first and the very last step, its what comes between thats up in the air.
Chuck in that the guards have yet to vote on the deal and the drivers have yet to be offered a deal and I think it will be a fair while before you see a 777 in passenger service.

 

[Meerkat]

They will definitely be safety critical. I think the guard will close the doors but the driver will still have ultimate responsibility from dispatching from the station. Seems like it's being made more time consuming than improving the situation

In which case Merseyrail need to play hardball and put it to the public - are they willing to pay more and go slower, or do they want an OBS looking after them and leaving the doors alone?

 

[DJH1971]

Wednesday's delivery of 777008 & 777010 still on?

 

[Trains Trains]

In which case Merseyrail need to play hardball and put it to the public - are they willing to pay more and go slower, or do they want an OBS looking after them and leaving the doors alone?

Wait to see what happens

 

[Meerkat]

It's not merseyrail, it's merseytravel who decide though. It will be interesting to see the final outcome. As the units are having guards panels fitted soon it certainly looks like guards on units.

OK, as long as Merseyside passengers/ratepayers pay for the profligacy. They are already hugely subsidised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not merseyrail, it's merseytravel who decide though. It will be interesting to see the final outcome. As the units are having guards panels fitted soon it certainly looks like guards on units.

Good that they're fitting guard panels - without them it'd be 10-bell, and that's grindingly slow.

 

[Liverpool 507]

A 195/331 style approach (guard’s not allowed to work doors from rear cab) or is a GOP being fitted to the cabs as well?

 

[Trains Trains]

Wednesday's delivery of 777008 & 777010 still on?

Should be

 

[Camden]

OK, as long as Merseyside passengers/ratepayers pay for the profligacy. They are already hugely subsidised.

They are having to pay; that's unavoidable. They will likely face an even starker price in years to come, in a post disease world, when the choice is service halved or keep staffing levels as they are.

But enough of the subsidy propaganda please. It's all smoke and mirrors, and especially given the high train ridership in the Liverpool region across all TOCs the per passenger subsidy for the region will be nowhere near as high as other non-London locations. It's hard to have sympathy on subsidies for a country that won't put the investment and effort in necessary to secure profitability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But enough of the subsidy propaganda please. It's all smoke and mirrors, and especially given the high train ridership in the Liverpool region across all TOCs the per passenger subsidy for the region will be nowhere near as high as other non-London locations. It's hard to have sympathy on subsidies for a country that won't put the investment and effort in necessary to secure profitability.

Local rail (your U- and S-Bahnen, Merseyrail being a textbook example of the latter) is never, ever profitable in any setting. Some countries accept that and properly fund it as being required for a civilised large city.

Metrolink makes a paper profit, but that is taking out investment costs in infrastructure, so in reality it actually doesn't. Merseyrail could be profitable on paper if you took out a chunk of the Network Rail money and paid it direct instead.

 

[Trains Trains]

Local rail (your U- and S-Bahnen, Merseyrail being a textbook example of the latter) is never, ever profitable in any setting. Some countries accept that and properly fund it as being required for a civilised large city.

Metrolink makes a paper profit, but that is taking out investment costs in infrastructure, so in reality it actually doesn't. Merseyrail could be profitable on paper if you took out a chunk of the Network Rail money and paid it direct instead.

Merseyrail don't make money.

 

[Energy]

Abellio who run the franchise however

Serco-Abellio, a 50-50 joint venture between the 2 companies. They used to run Northern rail.

 

[507021]

Local rail (your U- and S-Bahnen, Merseyrail being a textbook example of the latter) is never, ever profitable in any setting. Some countries accept that and properly fund it as being required for a civilised large city.

Metrolink makes a paper profit, but that is taking out investment costs in infrastructure, so in reality it actually doesn't. Merseyrail could be profitable on paper if you took out a chunk of the Network Rail money and paid it direct instead.

Merseyrail's recent after-tax profits (in Euros, I can't find the figures in Sterling).

2016-17: 20.7 million.
2017-18: 20.4 million.
2018-19: 23.2 million.

 

[Meerkat]

But enough of the subsidy propaganda please. It's all smoke and mirrors, and especially given the high train ridership in the Liverpool region across all TOCs the per passenger subsidy for the region will be nowhere near as high as other non-London locations. It's hard to have sympathy on subsidies for a country that won't put the investment and effort in necessary to secure profitability.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1547/rail-finance-statistical-release-2018-19.pdf
Only Wales, Scotland and Northern are higher per kilometre subsidies, and Northern has loads of basket cases to support (and most northern passengers would love Merseyrail service levels)
The point remains that AIUI the business case for the new trains was based on no door operating guards and they dont need them.
Anyway this is in danger of going down the usual route so I shall accept that many vehemently disagree and move on!

 

[Trains Trains]

Serco-Abellio, a 50-50 joint venture between the 2 companies. They used to run Northern rail.

Yes, sorry just assumed people knew that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2020 ==

Merseyrail's recent after-tax profits (in Euros, I can't find the figures in Sterling).

2016-17: 20.7 million.
2017-18: 20.4 million.
2018-19: 23.2 million

 

[507021]

Not merseyrail. That's how they write the reports, the same way people think its merseyrail who have the final say on if there are guards on the train or what stations have staff. Merseyrail abellio and serco and merseytravel a
re all different companies. Abellio serco run merseyrail and take the profit shown above . Merseyrail can not make money but can also not lose money.

I understand how the concession is operated and who ultimately calls the shots, but wasn't aware of the score with regards to the profits made. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[Trains Trains]

I understand how the concession is operated and who ultimately calls the shots, but wasn't aware of the score with regards to the profits made. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[507 001]

According to a well known manager who is involved in the 777 introduction, it’ll be Driver release, guard close.

 

[Trains Trains]

According to a well known manager who is involved in the 777 introduction, it’ll be Driver release, guard close.

Yes I heard the same.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2020 ==

According to a well known manager who is involved in the 777 introduction, it’ll be Driver release, guard close.

I guess you know who ever you are talking about from your time at Hall road and or Birkenhead North guessing by your picture and name

 

[Energy]

Merseyrail's recent after-tax profits (in Euros, I can't find the figures in Sterling).

2016-17: 20.7 million.
2017-18: 20.4 million.
2018-19: 23.2 million.

Wikipedia says merseyrail has 34 million passengers a year so they get ~60p of profit per passenger. Assuming tickets are £5.20 each (daysaver tickets) and euros converted to pounds its about a 9.6% profit margin which is pretty great for a rail operator, VTWC I believe had a smaller margin.

 

[507 001]

Yes I heard the same. But even then the driver will be responsible for despatching the train from the platform using the in cab CCTV that monitors the doors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2020 ==


I guess you know who ever you are talking about from your time at Hall road and or Birkenhead North guessing by your picture and name

Haven’t heard that about the drivers. I think it’s likely that the monitors will be left in use as an extra pair of eyes rather than for the actual dispatch.

I wish I had been at North or Hall Road! Sadly not.

 

[Trains Trains]

Haven’t heard that about the drivers. I think it’s likely that the monitors will be left in use as an extra pair of eyes rather than for the actual dispatch.

I wish I had been at North or Hall Road! Sadly not.

you could be right

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail's recent after-tax profits (in Euros, I can't find the figures in Sterling).

2016-17: 20.7 million.
2017-18: 20.4 million.
2018-19: 23.2 million.

That's the TOC, but it's after subsidy. Metrolink makes an operating profit without subsidy, but it's skewed by TfGM paying for and owning the infrastructure.

 

[supervc-10]

This whole argument annoys me about public transport. I bet if there was an accurate way to calculate the financial benefits of Merseyrail (or Metrolink, or whatever) across all sectors then it would be immensely 'profitable'.

But I think I'm preaching to the choir on this forum about that!

 

[Meerkat]

Well apparently the Liverpool City Council commissioned a feasibility study into re-opening the line to passengers late last year, so, I guess it's a case of waiting to see what the results of the study are.

Call me cynical but feasibility etc studies are an industry these days. Consultants robbing a living creating pretty slide decks based on ‘desk studies’ - ie the same research and crayoning we could all do. The councils lap it up from the snake oil salesmen and like it as it’s a relatively cheap pacifier for the local noisies

 

[samrammstein]

Back to class 777s for a moment, this schedule has appeared for another potential delivery on Wednesday arriving at Kirkdale early Thursday morning.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R03220/2020-08-19/detailed

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Back to class 777s for a moment, this schedule has appeared for another potential delivery on Wednesday arriving at Kirkdale early Thursday morning.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R03220/2020-08-19/detailed

Presumably 777 008 and 777 010?