Settle-Carlisle as solution to Northern WCML capacity problems

[DB]

Add to those points that most freight on the WCML in Cumbria these days seems to run at night when passenger capacity isn't an issue. There are some daytime paths though, and they will be problematic if e.g HS2 demands more paths.



Barely. How much commercial freight uses the full length now? A few trains a week to the cement works at Clitheroe and some timber (apparently suspended since the pandemic hit)? The coal traffic is never coming back. Combine that with the sparse passenger service and one has to wonder how much of a future the line has.

There's stone on the southern end too.

It definitely has a future. Of all railway lines, the history of that one is such that no government would try to close it now due to the outcry it would provoke.

 

[edwin_m]

Probably? If that's the chord just south of Lostock Hall Station.

The junctions in question are Farington (one R) Junction on the WCML and Lostock Hall Junction going towards Blackburn. The Quail map refers to it as the Farington old curve, which is potentially confusing as there is a Farington Curve Junction nearby where the Blackburn and Ormskirk lines join the WCML towards Preston.

Lostocks seems to be a common and confusing name in that part of the world - there's also Lostock Gralam on the mid-Cheshire line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lostock appears to mean either a pig farm or pigsty, so there were I imagine quite a few of those

Lostock, Bolton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Senex]

The junctions in question are Farington (one R) Junction on the WCML and Lostock Hall Junction going towards Blackburn. The Quail map refers to it as the Farington old curve, which is potentially confusing as there is a Farington Curve Junction nearby where the Blackburn and Ormskirk lines join the WCML towards Preston.

Lostocks seems to be a common and confusing name in that part of the world - there's also Lostock Gralam on the mid-Cheshire line.

I wonder if there's any local evidence for "Farington Old Curve" being a railwaymen's name for it. The original junction for the Blackurn line faced north and was in use till 1850. Somewhat later the connecting curve at the North Union (WCML) end was replaced by a south-facing one, the half mile from the end of the curve to Lostock Hall Jn remaining as it was, to give the south-to-east curve we have today. Plenty of scope for confusion with Farington Curve Jn!

 

[Ianno87]

The junctions in question are Farington (one R) Junction on the WCML and Lostock Hall Junction going towards Blackburn. The Quail map refers to it as the Farington old curve, which is potentially confusing as there is a Farington Curve Junction nearby where the Blackburn and Ormskirk lines join the WCML towards Preston.

Lostocks seems to be a common and confusing name in that part of the world - there's also Lostock Gralam on the mid-Cheshire line.

Thankfully, we didn't end up with "Lostock Parkway" on the Trafford Centre Metrolink line as well.... (just plain Parkway in the end)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thankfully, we didn't end up with "Lostock Parkway" on the Trafford Centre Metrolink line as well.... (just plain Parkway in the end)

Now that would have been confusing, even though the heavy rail station near Bolton lost the "Parkway" suffix some years ago, I think as a result of the BR InterCity sector claiming it belonged to them.

 

[Neptune]

Barely. How much commercial freight uses the full length now? A few trains a week to the cement works at Clitheroe and some timber (apparently suspended since the pandemic hit)? The coal traffic is never coming back. Combine that with the sparse passenger service and one has to wonder how much of a future the line has.

Whilst freight traffic has dwindled over the years the passenger service has increased from broadly 2 hourly to 1 service every 90 minutes (pre-COVID). Trains have a decent load, not just with walkers and tourists but with people going from Leeds and the Aire Valley to Glasgow as it’s a cheaper and quicker alternative to Cross Country.

The future of the line is secure despite the ship sailing long ago regarding diversions.

 

[muddythefish]

The future of the line is secure despite the ship sailing long ago regarding diversions.

Having lived close to the Blackburn-Hellifield line in the 1960s and 1970s when the line was regularly used for diversions, particularly on Sundays, I find this very disappointing and puzzling. Why is it so difficult?

 

[Neptune]

Evidently Virgin and now Avanti prefer bustitution.

I remember going to see the diversions in Spring 1989 with all sorts of 47’s and even the odd pair of 31’s hauling various WCML services. Combined with 47’s and 1st gen DMU’s on the S&C stoppers it was a fantastic 4 weekends to lineside up there. We generally went to Helwith Bridge, Settle Junction, Ribblehead, Dent Head viaduct and Kirby Stephen although a ford drowned the distributor on the old Y reg Austin Maestro one weekend losing us about 2 hours viewing. Happy days never to be repeated.

 

[HSTEd]

Barely. How much commercial freight uses the full length now? A few trains a week to the cement works at Clitheroe and some timber (apparently suspended since the pandemic hit)? The coal traffic is never coming back. Combine that with the sparse passenger service and one has to wonder how much of a future the line has.

If all else fails, it could be used as a testbed for extreme gauge clearing, resignalling or any number of other things.

It's pretty challenging terrain, so if things can work there they will work in many other places.

 

[BrianW]

Evidently Virgin and now Avanti prefer bustitution.
/QUOTE]

I thought Transport Focus evidence showed that pasengers prefer to 'stay on the train' in preference to bustitution- so much for 'customer focus' I guess.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It hardly takes a metaphorical rocket scientist or brain surgeon to work out that passengers prefer not to change en route.

The problem comes in translating that preference into a workable proposition for diversions. Unlike the late 1980s there are 'now' [non-COVID timetables] typically three passenger trains each way per hour over Shap, virtually all being electric 'multiple units'. They variously connect London, the West Midlands and 'Lancashire' with Glasgow and Edinburgh. It isn't remotely feasible to divert all of these services via the S&C for many capacity and resource reasons.

All that might be managed is for a few trains to be diverted with others shuttling beyond Preston and Carlisle. So there is a huge amount of changing and hanging around at those stations and no likelihood of there being spare capacity on the few through trains that are running. So you need a major road operation anyway, quite apart from dealing with intermediate stations. Far better to focus on one 'option' and manage that well. This also avoids spreading the pain to other places like Shrewsbury and North Wales if the Voyagers are taken away from there to resource a skeleton Anglo-Scottish service.

 

[BrianW]

I would like to thank you Dr Hoo for putting me and Transport Focus straight- that's a benefit of having Forum members who know what they are talking about.

 

[Ianno87]

It hardly takes a metaphorical rocket scientist or brain surgeon to work out that passengers prefer not to change en route.

Corollary: Provided that a direct journey is not significantly longer in duration than one involving a change.

Most passengers these days travel as dictated by the cheap fare, or whatever the journey planner tells them to do.

 

[muddythefish]

It hardly takes a metaphorical rocket scientist or brain surgeon to work out that passengers prefer not to change en route.

The problem comes in translating that preference into a workable proposition for diversions. Unlike the late 1980s there are 'now' [non-COVID timetables] typically three passenger trains each way per hour over Shap, virtually all being electric 'multiple units'. They variously connect London, the West Midlands and 'Lancashire' with Glasgow and Edinburgh. It isn't remotely feasible to divert all of these services via the S&C for many capacity and resource reasons.

All that might be managed is for a few trains to be diverted with others shuttling beyond Preston and Carlisle. So there is a huge amount of changing and hanging around at those stations and no likelihood of there being spare capacity on the few through trains that are running. So you need a major road operation anyway, quite apart from dealing with intermediate stations. Far better to focus on one 'option' and manage that well. This also avoids spreading the pain to other places like Shrewsbury and North Wales if the Voyagers are taken away from there to resource a skeleton Anglo-Scottish service.

Is it not possible to attach a diesel locomotive (Thunderbird?) to these electric trains, similar to when they break down ?

 

[Purple Orange]

It might have been said already, but isn't the northern WCML problems confined between Manchester and Birmingham/Rugby?

 

[edwin_m]

It might have been said already, but isn't the northern WCML problems confined between Manchester and Birmingham/Rugby?

That section may have problems, but I think what we are talking about here is the mainly double-track section north of Crewe, where the mix of faster passenger and slower freight trains limits capacity even though the total number is under ten per hour. For a line that runs between London and Glasgow Rugby is hardly "northern"...

 

[muddythefish]

That section may have problems, but I think what we are talking about here is the mainly double-track section north of Crewe, where the mix of faster passenger and slower freight trains limits capacity even though the total number is under ten per hour. For a line that runs between London and Glasgow Rugby is hardly "northern"...

Astonishing really. One of my old trainspotting haunts was Hest Bank between Lancaster and Carnforth in the late 1960s. Although, there were light engine movements between Heysham docks and Carnforth shed, the norm was for between 40-50 trains per hour. The level crossing gates at Hest Bank were almost permanently shut.

 

[yorksrob]

For intermediate stations only between Preston and Carlisle you can probably manage with one coach per Pendolino, they aren't that busy.

Lancaster can be pretty busy.

There's stone on the southern end too.

It definitely has a future. Of all railway lines, the history of that one is such that no government would try to close it now due to the outcry it would provoke.

Yes, plenty of us on stand-by to kick up a stink if need be !!

 

[30907]

I would like to thank you Dr Hoo for putting me and Transport Focus straight- that's a benefit of having Forum members who know what they are talking about.

Transport Focus's survey was not wrong - but "customer focus" has to include providing for much larger numbers of travellers than in the days of diversions.
I say this, recalling my first trip over the S and C in 1973 on the Sunday 10.25 Euston-Glasgow - the ONE train from London IIRC till mid-afternoon (I am sure there was one from the NW and one from the Midlands too, but you see the change that has happened).
More recently there was simply NO service North of Lancaster or Oxenholme until early Sunday afternoon - not sure when that changed, but itvwas for several years.

 

[yorksrob]

Transport Focus's survey was not wrong - but "customer focus" has to include providing for much larger numbers of travellers than in the days of diversions.
I say this, recalling my first trip over the S and C in 1973 on the Sunday 10.25 Euston-Glasgow - the ONE train from London IIRC till mid-afternoon (I am sure there was one from the NW and one from the Midlands too, but you see the change that has happened).
More recently there was simply NO service North of Lancaster or Oxenholme until early Sunday afternoon - not sure when that changed, but itvwas for several years.

Surely with more passengers, that's even more reason to have both the diversions and buses for intermediate stops !

 

[30907]

Surely with more passengers, that's even more reason to have both the diversions and buses for intermediate stops !

Ideally, yes, but what rolling stock do you use to cover the Preston-Carlisle diversion, that is the problem?
However, this is a well-worn topic and nothing to do with WCML capacity problems as per the title.

 

[yorksrob]

Ideally, yes, but what rolling stock do you use to cover the Preston-Carlisle diversion, that is the problem?
However, this is a well-worn topic and nothing to do with WCML capacity problems as per the title.

Use whatever there is, whether you have to hire something in, swap sets around or loco haul something.

 

[The Planner]

Use whatever there is, whether you have to hire something in, swap sets around or loco haul something.

If these blocks are on a Sunday (as the majority of 29 hour blocks are), what do you do about getting stock back in the right place for Monday morning and conversely in the right place on Saturday night? The impact to isn't necessarily confined to the one day. For a lot of blocks it is fairly straightforward, not so much for a diversion like that.

 

[yorksrob]

If these blocks are on a Sunday (as the majority of 29 hour blocks are), what do you do about getting stock back in the right place for Monday morning and conversely in the right place on Saturday night? The impact to isn't necessarily confined to the one day. For a lot of blocks it is fairly straightforward, not so much for a diversion like that.

Well, they clearly had ways to move stock around to the right place, prior to the early noughties. Do whatever they did then.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Well, they clearly had ways to move stock around to the right place, prior to the early noughties. Do whatever they did then.

But it's not then is it. If it were that simple they would. We've moved away from loco hauled trains to multiple units and there just aren't the numbers of locos floating around that there used to be.

 

[yorksrob]

But it's not then is it. If it were that simple they would. We've moved away from loco hauled trains to multiple units and there just aren't the numbers of locos floating around that there used to be.

There are endless supplies of locos and stock available to hire. They (VT) even had their own, in the form of the Pretendolino, but they chose to get rid of it.

 

[The Planner]

Well, they clearly had ways to move stock around to the right place, prior to the early noughties. Do whatever they did then.

That is fine, Chester and North Wales end up without a service for probably 2 days as does Shrewsbury. I doubt you could run more than 2 hourly via the S&C with a 10 car Voyager which is replacing up to 40 cars worth of Pendo. The other options Avanti would want compensating for over and above what the industry Schedule 4 regime allows and then even if that is agreed it is likely to be completely non cost effective for NR to do the actual work. Even if you did all that, chances are you would get a "do not travel" message to reduce the passenger loadings.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Astonishing really. One of my old trainspotting haunts was Hest Bank between Lancaster and Carnforth in the late 1960s. Although, there were light engine movements between Heysham docks and Carnforth shed, the norm was for between 40-50 trains per hour. The level crossing gates at Hest Bank were almost permanently shut.

Amazing. In the early 1960s there were far less than that S of Preston on the WCML. I remember longish periods of no trains at Skew Bridge during daytime - except summer Saturdays and bank holidays.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Lancaster can be pretty busy.



Yes, plenty of us on stand-by to kick up a stink if need be !!

Post pandemic when the country is skint there will be much interest in how much sparsely used lines are subsidised. If it must be kept have it as a slow goods line only to serve quarries and non revenue earning trains.