Settle-Carlisle as solution to Northern WCML capacity problems

[quantinghome]

Capacity on the Northern WCML is currently eaten up by having high(ish) speed passenger trains and freight trains sharing the same tracks. Capacity is maximized by flighting passenger trains but still ultimately results in inefficient use of the route.

So why not re-route all freight trains via S&C? The junction by Lostock Hall Station would seem to be the sensible point of divergence, with freight trains routing from there through Blackburn and joining the S&C at Hellifield. Some infrastructure intervention would be needed, probably a grade-separated junction at the WCML junction, requiring about the same scale of works as at Werrington on the ECML. Do we know if this option is being actively considered?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we need more passenger capacity on the north WCML? Only one I can think of us potentially wanting is Windermere-Manchester Airport hourly (with Barrow terminating at Lancaster) if wired.

 

[DB]

Capacity on the Northern WCML is currently eaten up by having high(ish) speed passenger trains and freight trains sharing the same tracks. Capacity is maximized by flighting passenger trains but still ultimately results in inefficient use of the route.

So why not re-route all freight trains via S&C? Lostock junction would seem to be the sensible point of divergence, with freight trains routing from there through Blackburn and joining the S&C at Hellifield. Some infrastructure intervention would be needed, probably a grade-separated junction at Lostock, requiring about the same scale of works as at Werrington on the ECML. Do we know if this option is being actively considered?

That would rule out electrically-hauled freight - if the aim is to reduce diesel use, this would likely have the opposite effect.

 

[JonathanH]

So why not re-route all freight trains via S&C?

It is just too slow, even if you could electrify it and build the grade separated junctions you suggest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would rule out electrically-hauled freight - if the aim is to reduce diesel use, this would likely have the opposite effect.

As a useful diversionary route the S&C really could do with being wired, but I suspect it would be a very expensive job with all the tunnels and bad weather.

 

[quantinghome]

It is just too slow, even if you could electrify it and build the grade separated junctions you suggest.

How fast do freight trains go from Preston to Carlisle?

 

[JonathanH]

Some useful pointers as to why it doesn't work here.

TOC on the northern WCML

How about sending some freight via the Settle and Carlisle instead of the WCML between Preston and Carlisle?

www.railforums.co.uk

The Settle & Carlisle route is already used for freight.

 

[DB]

As a useful diversionary route the S&C really could do with being wired, but I suspect it would be a very expensive job with all the tunnels and bad weather.

Massively so, and highly controversial as well (wires across Ribblehead Viaduct). Can't see it ever being viable.

Doesn't seem to be used that much as a diversionary route any more anyway - Virgin gave up on using it years ago, even with Voyagers.

 

[JonathanH]

How fast do freight trains go from Preston to Carlisle?

Here is an example of a freight train path that goes via Settle between Carlisle and Wigan.

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1258 Carlisle Yard Colas Rail to Chirk Kronospan Colas Rail

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Here is an example of a freight train path that goes via Oxenholme between Carlisle and Wigan

Realtime Trains - 451L 0548 Mossend Down Yard to Daventry Int Rft Recep Fl

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The former takes 4.5 hours to get from Carlisle to Wigan. The latter takes 2.5 hours. Obviously, they are different types of train with different speeds but it shows why the direct route is used.

 

[Dr Hoo]

A large proportion of freight trains on the WCML are intermodal and the S&C is not gauge-cleared.

Services to intermediate terminals - most obviously Harrison's Sidings and Hardendale - would also still need to use the WCML.

 

[edwin_m]

Here is an example of a freight train path that goes via Settle between Carlisle and Wigan.

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1258 Carlisle Yard Colas Rail to Chirk Kronospan Colas Rail

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Here is an example of a freight train path that goes via Oxenholme between Carlisle and Wigan

Realtime Trains - 451L 0548 Mossend Down Yard to Daventry Int Rft Recep Fl

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The former takes 4.5 hours to get from Carlisle to Wigan. The latter takes 2.5 hours. Obviously, they are different types of train with different speeds but it shows why the direct route is used.

You're flattering the WCML somewhat here as the freight quoted is southbound, 75mph and electric, and only gets looped once. The answer might be rather different for a northbound 60mph diesel timing, which probably takes about 25min each to get up Shap and Beattock and correspondingly will have to be looped much more.

If the sidings at the Leyland factory aren't used any more (weren't they a temporary depot for Northern during work at Blackpool) then maybe a flyover could be built between there and Farington Curve to avoid any freight heading towards Blackburn having to cross the on the flat. Unfortunately someone's built a road bridge that prevents grade separation at junction itself, and trying to get a curve up to where the Preston-Blackburn line crosses the WCML would demolish most of Farington village.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Massively so, and highly controversial as well (wires across Ribblehead Viaduct). Can't see it ever being viable.

Doesn't seem to be used that much as a diversionary route any more anyway - Virgin gave up on using it years ago, even with Voyagers.

Because it was easier to put on RRBs. However, with the PSVAR regulations soon to apply (the exemption is unlikely to go on forever) they may be pushed back the other way again.

 

[JonathanH]

Because it was easier to put on RRBs. However, with the PSVAR regulations soon to apply (the exemption is unlikely to go on forever) they may be pushed back the other way again.

That is unlikely isn't it. They are still going to have to serve the intermediate stations, it is quicker by bus and they won't have suitable rolling stock for the diversions.

I think it is highly unlikely that you predicate sending freight trains that way on the value of the route as a diversionary measure for WCML passenger services just because there arent enough suitable rail replacement buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is unlikely isn't it. They are still going to have to serve the intermediate stations

Would need fewer buses.

they won't have suitable rolling stock for the diversions.

Er, they'll have a load of bi-mode 80x.

 

[DB]

Would need fewer buses.

Er, they'll have a load of bi-mode 80x.

Aren't those intended for the southern part of the route? If so it would mean a major rearrangement of diagrams every time there was a diversion - probably not gong to be practical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't those intended for the southern part of the route? If so it would mean a major rearrangement of diagrams every time there was a diversion

Yes, it would - just like they actually did do when they did it using Voyagers! This sort of diagram set is one you plan in advance, a bit like the 2-track timetable.

They were freed up by cancelling the Euston-Crewe section of the North Wales service and adding stops to other services to compensate.

 

[DB]

Yes, it would - just like they actually did do when they did it using Voyagers! This sort of diagram set is one you plan in advance, a bit like the 2-track timetable.

They were freed up by cancelling Euston-Crewe of the North Wales service and adding stops to other services to compensate.

Voyagers work the northern end though, so the drivers and guards will all have been familiar with them. And they did drag Pendolinos over the line quite a bit, back when they had more thunderbirds and they were operated directly by Virgin rather than leased in.

 

[The Planner]

You won't see Avanti on the S&C any time soon, even with the 800s.

 

[A0]

Because it was easier to put on RRBs. However, with the PSVAR regulations soon to apply (the exemption is unlikely to go on forever) they may be pushed back the other way again.

Well also you lose the ability to serve the intermediate stations if you divert via the S&C. So you still need an RRB.

Add in a 60mph linespeed on the S&C and it's unlikely the diverted train will be quicker than a non stop RRB between Carlisle & Preston.

And where RRBs are concerned it's unlikely PSVAR will apply because the coach is in effect a private hire - it's not being provided as a 'registered' bus service. As long as the rail company is able to provide accessible transport - which could mean providing a taxi where somebody is unable to access a coach - then there is no issue.

 

[DB]

Well also you lose the ability to serve the intermediate stations if you divert via the S&C. So you still need an RRB.

Add in a 60mph linespeed on the S&C and it's unlikely the diverted train will be quicker than a non stop RRB between Carlisle & Preston.

But many people would prefer to stay on a train, even if it takes longer, than have the hassle of buses. Yes, the intermediate stations still need to be dealt with but that's a minority of the overall passengers.

However, I very much doubt if we'll see diversions being reintroduced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well also you lose the ability to serve the intermediate stations if you divert via the S&C. So you still need an RRB.

Add in a 60mph linespeed on the S&C and it's unlikely the diverted train will be quicker than a non stop RRB between Carlisle & Preston.

For intermediate stations only between Preston and Carlisle you can probably manage with one coach per Pendolino, they aren't that busy.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

So why not re-route all freight trains via S&C? Lostock junction would seem to be the sensible point of divergence, with freight trains routing from there through Blackburn and joining the S&C at Hellifield.

Did you mean Farrington Junction to Lostock Hall to Blackburn to Clitheroe and then S&C? I thought Lostock Junction was on the Preston -Manchester line near Bolton.

 

[30907]

You're flattering the WCML somewhat here as the freight quoted is southbound, 75mph and electric, and only gets looped once. The answer might be rather different for a northbound 60mph diesel timing, which probably takes about 25min each to get up Shap and Beattock and correspondingly will have to be looped much more.

Fsir comment, but the northbound (empty) Chirk Logsdoes the run non stop in just over 2 hours. Even with one long stop to let all 3 passengers past, it wouldn't be as much as 3 hours to Carlisle (Beattock is irrelevant here).

 

[quantinghome]

Did you mean Farrington Junction to Lostock Hall to Blackburn to Clitheroe and then S&C? I thought Lostock Junction was on the Preston -Manchester line near Bolton.

Probably? If that's the chord just south of Lostock Hall Station.

 

[Ianno87]

But many people would prefer to stay on a train, even if it takes longer, than have the hassle of buses.

Only to a point. There's a point where, of the rail journey time gets so extended, the intended journey becomes unviable (or the journey planner just finds another route)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Probably? If that's the chord just south of Lostock Hall Station.

Yes

 

[37424]

Would need fewer buses.



Er, they'll have a load of bi-mode 80x.

Not really 13 Bi-modes as opposed 20 Voyagers. Virgin seemed to give up on S&C diversions around the time the Birmingham-Scotland services were joined to the Birmingham- Euston services, and presumably considerable re-diagramming required for a diversion had some bearing on it, where as previously the majority of Birmingham-Scotland Services would be Voyagers.

Obviously the North West Electrification has opened up more electrified diversionary routes and reduced the need for diesel to a point, but obviously doesn't help north of Preston

 

[quantinghome]

Yes

Thanks. I've amended the OP.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, it would - just like they actually did do when they did it using Voyagers! This sort of diagram set is one you plan in advance, a bit like the 2-track timetable.

They were freed up by cancelling the Euston-Crewe section of the North Wales service and adding stops to other services to compensate.

Even if they were going to be working to Scotland, there are only going to be 13 of them. That would probably mean a maximum of one unit available for North Wales and Chester to Crewe services, or one service every four hours between Crewe and Holyhead.

The last time this happened, when the Edinburgh services ran via the Suburban line, the Chester and North Wales services were all destregthened to five car, which was very problematic.

 

[158756]

Some useful pointers as to why it doesn't work here.

TOC on the northern WCML

How about sending some freight via the Settle and Carlisle instead of the WCML between Preston and Carlisle?

www.railforums.co.uk

Add to those points that most freight on the WCML in Cumbria these days seems to run at night when passenger capacity isn't an issue. There are some daytime paths though, and they will be problematic if e.g HS2 demands more paths.

The Settle & Carlisle route is already used for freight.

Barely. How much commercial freight uses the full length now? A few trains a week to the cement works at Clitheroe and some timber (apparently suspended since the pandemic hit)? The coal traffic is never coming back. Combine that with the sparse passenger service and one has to wonder how much of a future the line has.