Idea for return of Motorail?

[Non Multi]

First Great Western Motorail covered wagon displayed open and loaded with cars (2008): https://www.flickr.com/photos/63119375@N03/49813353012

 

[HSTEd]

I think the only way it could possibly be economic is if it could be operated at high speed (higher than motorway speeds) and use stock resembling the Chunnel Shuttle, with passengers able to access their vehicles in motion and rapid simultaneous loading and unloading.

That is not practical if your loading gauge is as narrow as the available one is.
And without being able to double stack vehicles you are going to struggle to get enough vehicles in the available train length to amortise staffing and other costs.

 

[squizzler]

With the advent of electric cars requiring multiple charges to get from...say, London - Scotland, it would be quicker to Motorail them. But people travelling for business will always do car hire which is quicker more convenient. Expenses can be claimed. And the "fuel" cost in an electric car would be cheap anyway if it's for a leisure trip.

This is a most salient point. The batteries are the most expensive part of an electric car so if the long distances can be addressed by other means the battery pack can be made smaller and electric motoring becomes affordable to more people. A good motorail network would open up the entire country to motorists using affordable and lightweight electric cars such as the Mahindra e2o, or the even smaller REVAi / G-Wizz that car spotters might remember being popular a few years back. With no engine taking up space in front like traditional cars and designed for easy parking in urban areas, more of this type can be accommodated per train.

The cars can even be recharged onboard!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a most salient point. The batteries are the most expensive part of an electric car so if the long distances can be addressed by other means the battery pack can be made smaller and electric motoring becomes affordable to more people. A good motorail network would open up the entire country to motorists using affordable and lightweight electric cars.

The cars can even be recharged onboard!

But why waste energy transporting the car when you can just hire one at your destination?

 

[mmh]

GB loading gauge is (I think) 2820mm wide in the body. Deduct 100mm each side for body thickness, that leaves 2620mm. A Tesla Model S (to take a wide car) is 1999mm wide. That leaves 621mm; 310mm, or just over a foot, on each side. That wouldn’t be enough to open the doors and get out easily. And there would be a high risk of it being scratched.

To have 600mm each side, a car would need to be 1420mm wide. No modern car is that narrow (though a classic mini from the 1960s is even narrower); a modern mini is 1727mm wide.

Lots of extremes going on here. 100mm is a very thick body - what's in it to make it so thick? A 2 metre wide car is exceptionally wide and unusual. Why are you suggesting two feet on both sides? Only the driver's door needs to be opened, and two feet either side is more generous than in many parking spaces and garages.

Motorail won't come back for various reasons, but I don't think the width of cars is one of them.

 

[mmh]

A good motorail network would open up the entire country to motorists using affordable and lightweight electric cars such as the Mahindra e2o, or the even smaller REVAi / G-Wizz that car spotters might remember being popular a few years back.

No, let's not propose death traps like that. They should never have been allowed on the road!

 

[squizzler]

But why waste energy transporting the car when you can just hire one at your destination?

The benefits of electrification of motoring with the 'city car' model is that the performance only needs to be tailored to the 'last mile' - or last 50 / 75 miles according to range quoted for the REVAi and e2o respectively, and this sets off a virtuous circle that the battery and motor to achieve this can be smaller lighter, bodywork can be reduced in proportion, which in turn allow the motor and battery to be even smaller, etc. For purpose of motorail the small city runabout then becomes a glorified wheelie suitcase with seats. It can be loaded with anything required for your two weeks self catering in Devon and driven onto the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The benefits of electrification of motoring with the 'city car' model is that the performance only needs to be tailored to the 'last mile' - or last 50 / 75 miles according to range quoted for the REVAi and e2o respectively, and this sets off a virtuous circle that the battery and motor to achieve this can be smaller lighter, bodywork can be reduced in proportion, which in turn allow the motor and battery to be even smaller, etc. For purpose of motorail the small city runabout then becomes a glorified wheelie suitcase with seats. It can be loaded with anything required for your two weeks self catering in Devon and driven onto the train.

Or you could use conventional wheelie suitcases and hire one at your destination, as I said, thus not wasting energy moving them around the country.

Moving 2 tonnes of metal around per person (or even one tonne for a small city car) is not a sensible use of energy. If you're going to do that you might as well just drive the thing, stopping off for charging at service stations.

 

[edwin_m]

Or you could use conventional wheelie suitcases and hire one at your destination, as I said, thus not wasting energy moving them around the country.

Moving 2 tonnes of metal around per person (or even one tonne for a small city car) is not a sensible use of energy. If you're going to do that you might as well just drive the thing, stopping off for charging at service stations.

It also takes up limited rail capacity that could be used for moving passengers or freight, that otherwise might end up back on the roads instead.

One possible consequence of future electric/autonomous cars is that they become shared rather than owned, on the model of car clubs. There are various issues with making this widespread but it has the potential to get round the battery cost issue and the continuing downsides of making large numbers of vehicles embodying CO2 and needing scarce materials for their batteries. Such a model would easily be extendable to allow a car to be collected in a similar way at the destination of a train journey.

 

[alistairlees]

Lots of extremes going on here. 100mm is a very thick body - what's in it to make it so thick? A 2 metre wide car is exceptionally wide and unusual. Why are you suggesting two feet on both sides? Only the driver's door needs to be opened, and two feet either side is more generous than in many parking spaces and garages.

Motorail won't come back for various reasons, but I don't think the width of cars is one of them.

I already explained the reasons why it won't come back; but increasing car size vs not-increasing train size is another thing that won't make it any easier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It also takes up limited rail capacity that could be used for moving passengers or freight, that otherwise might end up back on the roads instead.

One possible consequence of future electric/autonomous cars is that they become shared rather than owned, on the model of car clubs. There are various issues with making this widespread but it has the potential to get round the battery cost issue and the continuing downsides of making large numbers of vehicles embodying CO2 and needing scarce materials for their batteries. Such a model would easily be extendable to allow a car to be collected in a similar way at the destination of a train journey.

Even conventional car hire allows that!

 

[edwin_m]

Even conventional car hire allows that!

Indeed, but it would become even more straightforward if shared ownership of vehicles was the norm, rather than having to go through the rather tedious process of arranging a hire vehicle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, but it would become even more straightforward if shared ownership of vehicles was the norm, rather than having to go through the rather tedious process of arranging a hire vehicle.

Yes, true, though there's no reason why Trainline etc shouldn't just have a checkbox "deliver me a hire car for my trip on my arrival, and collect it from me on my return, at my arrival station - please select the vehicle type and price from the dropdown - don't worry if your train is late, we will be there for you when you arrive". You'd need a couple more pages for signup, acceptance of excesses etc if you checked it, but it's an obvious integration to have. Airlines already do!

 

[trebor79]

Motorail briefly worked in the 1970s because the roads were crap, there were almost no motorways, and cars were very unreliable. All that’s changed. As a result, motorail will never again work with the distances we have in this country. I doubt it was profitable in the 1970s anyway.

Oh how I would love motorail to be an option for our annual trips to Cornwall. ABD (All B***** Day) in the car with 2 kids, and every available space crammed with "stuff" is not fun. Ando for some reason the journey home is ALWAYS worse with the M5 a car park all the way from Exeter to Bristol.

But why waste energy transporting the car when you can just hire one at your destination?

We have thought about getting the train and hiring a car, but there's just too much stuff we need to take with us for 2 weeks at the seaside with a 6 year old and a just about toddling 18 month old. We wouldn't be able to carry it all, especially getting across London.

I think as another poster said, it's niche, but the market no doubt exists. The last remaining Motorail services were London to the West Country, which possibly isn't the best flow. I think something seasonal based upon tourist flows could work.
East Anglia, West Country, Wales, Scotland, North West/Lakes maybe with services splitting and joining somewhere in the middle of the country to increase the catchment and allow any destination to be served from any other destination. I'd do it as a day train with morning departures and afternoon/evening arrivals.

 

[JonathanH]

I think as another poster said, it's niche, but the market no doubt exists. The last remaining Motorail services were London to the West Country, which possibly isn't the best flow. I think something seasonal based upon tourist flows could work.

It could not exist at a price the market would support and there isn't capacity for it. People would say things like "I have had to pay £150 to take the family to Cornwall on the train and they want another £1,000 for the car. Motorail is so expensive." A similar idea which has been tried before is having luggage go by van separately to the West Country. However, that isn't something the Railway is best placed to offer or coordinate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have thought about getting the train and hiring a car, but there's just too much stuff we need to take with us for 2 weeks at the seaside with a 6 year old and a just about toddling 18 month old. We wouldn't be able to carry it all, especially getting across London.

Is that actually true, though? Two of the very large trolley cases cruise passengers tend to have, one for each adult, would basically carry the same as the boot capacity of an average family car, something like a Focus or Astra hatch. And while taking those across London on the Tube might not be fun, a taxi would certainly be fine.

 

[mmh]

Is that actually true, though? Two of the very large trolley cases cruise passengers tend to have, one for each adult, would basically carry the same as the boot capacity of an average family car, something like a Focus or Astra hatch. And while taking those across London on the Tube might not be fun, a taxi would certainly be fine.

Plus all the stuff that can't go in a suitcase like the pushchair and the bags of food, nappies, wipes etc that you need travelling with children. And the children themselves, of course! Having travelled with those enormous cases and a pushchair and all the accessories the awkwardness of it all just at an airport would put me off ever considering travelling that laden down by train.

 

[RT4038]

Oh how I would love motorail to be an option for our annual trips to Cornwall. ABD (All B***** Day) in the car with 2 kids, and every available space crammed with "stuff" is not fun. Ando for some reason the journey home is ALWAYS worse with the M5 a car park all the way from Exeter to Bristol.

We have thought about getting the train and hiring a car, but there's just too much stuff we need to take with us for 2 weeks at the seaside with a 6 year old and a just about toddling 18 month old. We wouldn't be able to carry it all, especially getting across London.

I think as another poster said, it's niche, but the market no doubt exists. The last remaining Motorail services were London to the West Country, which possibly isn't the best flow. I think something seasonal based upon tourist flows could work.
East Anglia, West Country, Wales, Scotland, North West/Lakes maybe with services splitting and joining somewhere in the middle of the country to increase the catchment and allow any destination to be served from any other destination. I'd do it as a day train with morning departures and afternoon/evening arrivals.

What market could possibly exist, at the £2,000 return fare for a family undoubtedly required to make the operation financially viable?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What market could possibly exist, at the £2,000 return fare for a family undoubtedly required to make the operation financially viable?

"I said have the car transported, not buy the car"

 

[edwin_m]

What market could possibly exist, at the £2,000 return fare for a family undoubtedly required to make the operation financially viable?

For that price you could pay someone to drive it for you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For that price you could pay someone to drive it for you.

For quite a lot less! Delivery costs when purchasing a car from far away only run to the low hundreds, not thousands.

It's just not viable. If you want your car as a giant suitcase, drive it there (and there isn't much environmental or road space disadvantage of 4 people in a modern family car) - if managing the kids on a long journey is difficult, as I'm sure it is, then break the journey up and make it part of the trip with some stop-offs on the way. If you want a car while you're there but can manage luggage, take the train and hire one. The niches not covered by those two options are so tiny it cannot possibly be a viable basis for a service in such a small country.

 

[trebor79]

We have thought about getting the train and hiring a car, but there's just too much stuff we need to take with us for 2 weeks at the seaside with a 6 year old and a just about toddling 18 month old. We wouldn't be able to carry it all, especially getting across London.

Is that actually true, though? Two of the very large trolley cases cruise passengers tend to have, one for each adult, would basically carry the same as the boot capacity of an average family car, something like a Focus or Astra hatch. And while taking those across London on the Tube might not be fun, a taxi would certainly be fine.

Yes, because you also have potties, toilet seats, nappies, high chair, travel cot, packs of nappies, changing mats, kiddy crockery and cutlery, soft toys, books, boxes of toys for rainy days. It's endless. We fill a Renault Grand Scenic + roof box. And it only just goes in.
And if we were renting a car we'd also have to bring 2 car seats with us.

What market could possibly exist, at the £2,000 return fare for a family undoubtedly required to make the operation financially viable?

Would it cost 2 grand return? Really? With all the stock that's going to be sat about doing nothing for the next few years. There's going to be spare capacity on the railway for sure.
At 2 grand return, I'd still be tempted.

 

[trebor79]

For that price you could pay someone to drive it for you.

Now, you've given me an idea...

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if we were renting a car we'd also have to bring 2 car seats with us.

While the fee might sometimes be a little steep, unsurprisingly hire companies have thought of that and will hire them! You'd think people never managed to go on family holidays by air with a hire car the way you talk about it

 

[trebor79]

While the fee might sometimes be a little steep, unsurprisingly hire companies have thought of that and will hire them! You'd think people never managed to go on family holidays by air with a hire car the way you talk about it

I know but my Mrs wouldn't want to use a rented car seat. Might have been in a crash, not the right posture for baby etc etc.
And even without car seats, all the other crap is unmanageable for a train journey.

 

[squizzler]

For quite a lot less [than a couple of grand]! Delivery costs when purchasing a car from far away only run to the low hundreds, not thousands.

The cost of a hypothetical motorail would be similar then if not cheaper because a long train rather than a road wagon means greater staff productivity and the customers will probably load it themselves.

A niche service surely. Returning to the electric city car thing again, it is not inconceivable that a sufficiently capitalised e-car lease service might include some long distance motorail as part of the package. They would then be spreading the cost over all their customers and the cost of car ownership generally and making their product much more desirable by banishing range anxiety, a common reason why many have eschewed electric cars to this point even where in practice they almost always make short trips.

 

[Western Lord]

I suspect that Motorail is as dead as the Bristol Freighters flying a couple of cars from Lydd to Le Touquet (the fastest way ever of crossing the channel with your car)

 

[BayPaul]

I would suggest that driverless unmanned (or perhaps a driver only in the front vehicle) convoys of electric cars along motorways are far more likely ways of moving moderate numbers of unmanned cars across the country rather than by rail (and probably far more efficiently as well).

 

[squizzler]

I would suggest that driverless unmanned (or perhaps a driver only in the front vehicle) convoys of electric cars along motorways are far more likely ways of moving moderate numbers of unmanned cars across the country rather than by rail (and probably far more efficiently as well).

Sounds cool. Where can I go and see this happening?

 

[edwin_m]

Sounds cool. Where can I go and see this happening?

You can't. But then again you can't see Motorail in this country either.

The cost of a hypothetical motorail would be similar then if not cheaper because a long train rather than a road wagon means greater staff productivity and the customers will probably load it themselves.

If you can find a couple of hundred cars that need to go from the same place to the same place at the same time. Outside of new car deliveries that's...

A niche service surely.

A niche so small as to be non-existent.