'PEP' derived stock: unloved workhorses, missed when withdrawn

[yorksrob]

Personally, I wouldn't feel too surprised (or disappointed) if 313201 is the only BR second generation EMU that actually ends up being preserved.

In a passenger perspective, from the Class 313 onwards, there just weren't any significant advances in EMU design until privatisation. Arguably there's the Networkers, from a technological perspective, but how many people actually care about AC motors!

The networkers have quite a different (I would say futuristic) feel inside - in comparison to 455's etc.

 

[Journeyman]

The networkers have quite a different (I would say futuristic) feel inside - in comparison to 455's etc.

They were a very significant step forward in my opinion, with a whole heap of issues fixed - better windows, better seats, better doors, improved decor, decent information systems...and the best motor noise in the business.

 

[D365]

...and the best motor noise in the business.

Unfortunately I'm still a pedant about this... it's the three phase inverter electronics that cause the noise

If you take away the noise from the electronics, the AC motors don't sound hugely different to their DC forebearers. Notice how there is barely any difference in motor noise on the AC motored Class 230s, compared to the DC motored D78 stock.

To bring it back on topic - the PEPs have done their time, and done it well. They (sadly) won't be remembered like the HSTs, or even the IC225.

 

[py_megapixel]

Unfortunately I'm still a pedant about this... it's the three phase inverter electronics that cause the noise

If we're being ultra-pedantic (which we are) - They may cause the noise, but it is the motor that actually produces the noise (i.e. the inverters produce the electrical signal which causes the sound of the motor to be like that)

 

[bramling]

Personally, I wouldn't feel too surprised (or disappointed) if 313201 is the only BR second generation EMU that actually ends up being preserved.

In a passenger perspective, from the Class 313 onwards, there just weren't any significant advances in EMU design until privatisation. Arguably there's the Networkers, from a technological perspective, but how many people actually care about AC motors!

The Networker was a good design, and an example of where someone went to some effort to try and design a really decent train.

The concept was let down by being a pioneer of too many new things, and perhaps that passenger volumes quickly overtook them such that they were no longer ideally designed for the routes they were built for. It would have been interesting to see what we'd have ended up with had BR gone down the road of successive Networker orders, where the concept would no doubt have got refined. Arguably the successful Electrostar design is an evolution of the Networker, and incorporates many of its good features. And of course I can't write this without making a passing mention of the 365, which was a massive step forward at the time. They were very well received on GN at the time, and no doubt on Connex SE too.

The 323 wasn't a bad design either.

 

[Bevan Price]

I agree with many of the previous comments. The PEP derivatives have served us well, some for over 40 years. Their main deficiencies relate to coach internal design, rather than to performance. So - poor internal layout of seats relative to windows, and those infernal hopper ventilators, where the choice in summer is either to be roasted by the sun, or to have your head area in a howling gale -- and in winter you can get nearly frozen because someone wants an open ventilator (or because a hopper window fails to remain shut.)

 

[delt1c]

What seems to be overlooked here is that the PEP derivatives were the 1st of the 2nd Gen EMU’s. They were a vast improvement on what came before. Yes they had their problems but they did the job that they were disigned for excellently. It is easy to look back with rose tinted glasses at earlier suburban stock , 6 aside compartments and only ventilation the drop down window. In saloon stock again ventilation was drop down window which usually meant a gale force blast for those further down the coach. Yes I miss the SUBs and EPB’s. Plus’s the 302 and 305’s. It they were not perfect either

 

[Journeyman]

What seems to be overlooked here is that the PEP derivatives were the 1st of the 2nd Gen EMU’s. They were a vast improvement on what came before. Yes they had their problems but they did the job that they were disigned for excellently. It is easy to look back with rose tinted glasses at earlier suburban stock , 6 aside compartments and only ventilation the drop down window. In saloon stock again ventilation was drop down window which usually meant a gale force blast for those further down the coach. Yes I miss the SUBs and EPB’s. Plus’s the 302 and 305’s. It they were not perfect either

Agreed - the PEPs were a step in the right direction after some really mediocre, dull and gloomy stock. Compartments were a serious hazard as well, magnets for often very serious crimes. I remember travelling on the 508s when brand new, and they blew my young mind! I recognise now that there were problems with them, but for short journeys they did the job. As you say, the stuff we look back on with misty-eyed nostalgia wasn't perfect either.

I think the later Mark 3 based units were slightly better, but the Networkers and later units really got the sliding door EMU right. So yeah...the PEPs were significant as BR's first really modern EMUs.

 

[WesternLancer]

Agreed - the PEPs were a step in the right direction after some really mediocre, dull and gloomy stock. Compartments were a serious hazard as well, magnets for often very serious crimes. I remember travelling on the 508s when brand new, and they blew my young mind! I recognise now that there were problems with them, but for short journeys they did the job. As you say, the stuff we look back on with misty-eyed nostalgia wasn't perfect either.

I think the later Mark 3 based units were slightly better, but the Networkers and later units really got the sliding door EMU right. So yeah...the PEPs were significant as BR's first really modern EMUs.

Very much agree - I wish that an interior from an original one (or one fitted with an original interior instead) had been saved for the unit identified for preservation - to convey the dramatic sense of transition from the old EPB type units (as per NRM example) - at least on the southern that is, for museum purposes so that the story would be more clearly told to museum visitors of the future.

 

[Journeyman]

Very much agree - I wish that an interior from an original one (or one fitted with an original interior instead) had been saved for the unit identified for preservation - to convey the dramatic sense of transition from the old EPB type units (as per NRM example) - at least on the southern that is, for museum purposes so that the story would be more clearly told to museum visitors of the future.

There's no reason why some original seats can't be saved and refitted, at least in one car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no reason why some original seats can't be saved and refitted, at least in one car.

Assuming any are still about?

 

[Journeyman]

All the 315s are still fitted with them.

 

[WesternLancer]

Assuming any are still about?

Indeed - but the NRM identified the PEP it wanted some time ago - so a suitable interior could have been secured at that time if desired. Tho 1st of the class is a 'nice thing to have' of course.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Indeed - but the NRM identified the PEP it wanted some time ago - so a suitable interior could have been secured at that time if desired. Tho 1st of the class is a 'nice thing to have' of course.

313001 (now 313201) was I believe offered to York. Has a markedly different interior though from new. 1st dual voltage UK train I believe.

 

[WesternLancer]

There's no reason why some original seats can't be saved and refitted, at least in one car.

Indeed - but not aware of any plan to do that by NRM. It would be a good idea

 

[61653 HTAFC]

313001 (now 313201) was I believe offered to York. Has a markedly different interior though from new. 1st dual voltage UK train I believe.

Apart from the 303s which were dual voltage from new (25kv AC and 6.25kv AC).

 

[delt1c]

Apart from the 303s which were dual voltage from new (25kv AC and 6.25kv AC).

Not quite the ER electric units were dual voltage. Believe the 304’s also were as were classes 81 to 85

 

[Journeyman]

Apart from the 303s which were dual voltage from new (25kv AC and 6.25kv AC).

Best not go there. Cause of some very nasty incidents with exploding transformers.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think the later Mark 3 based units were slightly better

From a technical standpoint, I beg to differ. Distributed traction & aluminium bodyshells vs a single motor coach & steel construction. The Mk3 based EMU's clearly show what state BREL were in, a state of being privatised.

 

[Journeyman]

From a technical standpoint, I beg to differ. Distributed traction & aluminium bodyshells vs a single motor coach & steel construction. The Mk3 based EMU's clearly show what state BREL were in, a state of being privatised.

Well, yeah, that's fair enough, and the early ones were a bit grim inside, but a train like the 321 was pretty good for the punter, and I still don't mind long journeys in them.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

There's no reason why some original seats can't be saved and refitted, at least in one car.

Network Rail 313121 still has original NSE seating inside, bar the addition of a toilet and kitchen.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I've often wondered what might have been had the sliding door experiments on an EPB in the 1970s been successful. But then perhaps only 10 units might have been rebuilt/refurbished this way before the money pot ran out. Quite a common affair at that time with grand schemes announced only to be downgraded after a batch of units were dealt with

Weirdly, I have taken a fondness to the Southern 313's; I suppose in part, they are the oldest EMU in service on the network. However it is becoming increasingly difficult to see out the windows because of the inner condensation/dirt

 

[delt1c]

I've often wondered what might have been had the sliding door experiments on an EPB in the 1970s been successful. But then perhaps only 10 units might have been rebuilt/refurbished this way before the money pot ran out. Quite a common affair at that time with grand schemes announced only to be downgraded after a batch of units were dealt with

Weirdly, I have taken a fondness to the Southern 313's; I suppose in part, they are the oldest EMU in service on the network. However it is becoming increasingly difficult to see out the windows because of the inner condensation/dirt

Sliding door experiment on an EPB. More info please . I remember the Networker classic and saw the prototype , but never heard of the EPB

 

[WesternLancer]

I've often wondered what might have been had the sliding door experiments on an EPB in the 1970s been successful. But then perhaps only 10 units might have been rebuilt/refurbished this way before the money pot ran out. Quite a common affair at that time with grand schemes announced only to be downgraded after a batch of units were dealt with

Weirdly, I have taken a fondness to the Southern 313's; I suppose in part, they are the oldest EMU in service on the network. However it is becoming increasingly difficult to see out the windows because of the inner condensation/dirt

Yes, the refurb had the potential to be quite nice but Southern has let them get tatty

 

[superjohn]

I've often wondered what might have been had the sliding door experiments on an EPB in the 1970s been successful.

Do you know any more about these experiments? Given the layout of EPB units with a door to every seating bay I imagine it would have required a major reworking of the interior.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Do you know any more about these experiments? Given the layout of EPB units with a door to every seating bay I imagine it would have required a major reworking of the interior.

I've started a new thread here:

4 EPB 5130

I understand that MBSO 14259 was used for sliding door experiments in the 1970s following withdrawal of the unit due to fire damage. I have in my archives a photo of it in the scrap line in Clapham Yard. It even had a 4-Vep style sliding ventilator Does anyone know any more about this...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Scotrail314209]

It would've been nice to have explored potential life extension projects a bit like what GWR have done with some HSTs.

Scotrail I think neglected their PEPs the most, they didn't even fit door buttons to them. I think with a proper heating system, new seats, carpet, PIS, door buttons and a toilet, they could've been well suited for many more years.

 

[CBlue]

It would've been nice to have explored potential life extension projects a bit like what GWR have done with some HSTs.

Scotrail I think neglected their PEPs the most, they didn't even fit door buttons to them. I think with a proper heating system, new seats, carpet, PIS, door buttons and a toilet, they could've been well suited for many more years.

Perhaps a heavy refurb would have been possible, but there comes a point when life-expired really -is- life-expired! Keeping it all in intensive service and a total rebuild like you suggest would have been a false economy.

 

[Journeyman]

I think with a proper heating system

PEPs have two settings for the heating system - "off" and "nuclear".

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps a heavy refurb would have been possible, but there comes a point when life-expired really -is- life-expired! Keeping it all in intensive service and a total rebuild like you suggest would have been a false economy.

Best done at around 20 - 30 years generally. I think the PEP's have missed the boat on that one.