UK face coverings discussion

[LAX54]

My experience just now was the same, a complete shambles to be honest. It put me off as I ended up not even coming away with what I had intended to get. Footfall was conspicuously light.

I suspect we may have to see some kind of direct action to stop this nonsense. This really is going to finish off the high street. My experience on trains is that when people see someone else devoid of mask it’s not long before theirs magically comes off. Once enough people start not complying then I suspect compliance will tail off very quickly, which is what needs to happen.

I‘d be happy for there to be a couple of hours a day where masks are mandatory, then leave the rest of the day for everyone else. Later this week we may be seeing some warm weather, that’s going to be interesting.

Also thought the idea behind the mandatory mask in shops order, was to stop the lines of people waiting to get in? if we are going to keep the 2m 'rule; then don not make it a requirement to wear a mask! online it seems 60/40 as to wishing just to get back to normal, the ones that are still scared because of what they have been told, seems to be getting smaller by the day. the elderly and those that have a bad illness need to be looked after, as they would ( I hope) in a round of seasonal flu etc, a majotity of the population will just get a couple fo weeks of feeling 'crap' like it is every year, the main difference I think, is this is more contagious than normal

I am not sure why people are ignoring the collateral dmamge this is causing too ? Shops closing, Businesses cllsing, menatl health in a downward spiral, and an increase in people taking, or tying to take their own lives

 

[LAX54]

One thing I find a little confusing. On the one hand I read that face coverings need to be used in conjunction with distancing. On the other hand I also read that face coverings are when people are unable to distance.

It is just complete Left Hand Right Hand ! I too as did my work collegues thought that compulsary masks, meant shoppimg as normal, and not being kept waiting outside in the rain, catching a cold or worse!

 

[LAX54]

OK, today saw a woman reach in to her pocket, pull out a face mask, sneeze into it then put it back in her pocket. Behaviour like this is why the compulsory wearing of masks is worse than "what have we got to lose"

Have you seen the tatty, used 10 times 'disposables' ? dragged out of a handbag, or caught in a dirty hanky, and then those that come out of a store, and pull it down below the chin, what is the point, it makes it useless, plus you have just touched it after use, so bin it !

 

[MikeWM]

I suspect we may have to see some kind of direct action to stop this nonsense. This really is going to finish off the high street. My experience on trains is that when people see someone else devoid of mask it’s not long before theirs magically comes off. Once enough people start not complying then I suspect compliance will tail off very quickly, which is what needs to happen.

Well, I'm not intending to wear one anymore - though I believe that I have a valid exemption anyway. (And the increasing number of people wandering around in the street wearing one, apparently entirely comfortable doing so for long periods of time, only reinforces the fact that I do have a valid exemption, as there is no way I could do that).

I took my first rail trip yesterday entirely without any mask (as opposed to making some vague perfunctory effort with a piece of cloth, and removing it when I thought no-one was watching). No issues - though even I felt a bit anxious doing so at first, when faced with a platform of about 50 masked people waiting for the train and only myself without - and this is from someone who *really* doesn't care in general what opinion strangers have of me. For those with issues with anxiety or crowds, it must be very unpleasant indeed to have to stand out like this.

 

[adc82140]

There are face coverings and there are face coverings. To pay the necessary lip service to the regulations, a thin bit of material will do. There is no need to wear the heavy PPE contraptions that some have chosen.

 

[AdamWW]

Not really. Now the virus has all but died out in the UK there's a good case for saying we can scrap both social distancing and wearing masks, but if we must have masks then there's no need for social distancing. As has been pointed out several times on here, the only risk of catching anything would be if you spent more than 15 minutes within 2 metres of someone carrying the virus, which you're not going to do in a supermarket.

The Covid app people estimate 2103 daily new cases in the UK.

I wouldn't say that's "all but died out".

I find it interesting that cases have risen in Spain, France, Germany and Scotland - in each case since they mandated masks. This is, however, a sample of only four. Does anyone have figures to hand for other countries which have mandated and since that point?

If we get an increase in England after this week, that would be rather interesting in itself wouldn't it?

So long as in none of those cases the countries didn't also relax restrictions at a similar time, yes.

I linked earlier to a paper doing a simliar study in different parts of the US and attempting to allow for changes in restrictions which would also affect infections. Their conclusion was that face coverings did help.

 

[AdamWW]

There are face coverings and there are face coverings. To pay the necessary lip service to the regulations, a thin bit of material will do. There is no need to wear the heavy PPE contraptions that some have chosen.

Unless you are on public transport in Wales of course.

 

[DB]

I linked earlier to a paper doing a simliar study in different parts of the US and attempting to allow for changes in restrictions which would also affect infections. Their conclusion was that face coverings did help.

But it wasn't definitive as in many cases other restrictions seemed to have been introduced at the same time and there was no clear description given, and there seemed to eb a geographical split betweens states as well. It might be of use to back up more solid evidence, but on it's own it's weak.

 

[adc82140]

Unless you are on public transport in Wales of course.

I really don't see BTP in Wales asking people to remove their masks, then hand them to police to count the layers.

 

[AdamWW]

I really don't see BTP in Wales asking people to remove their masks, then hand them to police to count the layers.

Well I thought you meant what you could do to keep within the letter of the law, if not the spirit.

If the idea of making masks compulsory in public transport in Wales was to avoid confusion with England, it's a bit odd to then have stricter requirements though.

 

[DB]

Well I thought you meant what you could do to keep within the letter of the law, if not the spirit.

If the idea of making masks compulsory in public transport in Wales was to avoid confusion with England, it's a bit odd to then have stricter requirements though.

It's just bad law-making. One of the first principals of expecting people to obey laws is that they should be enforceable - which this one simply isn't as there's no practical way to tell what type of mask one is without looking at it closely, which is clearly not possible in this sort of situation.

 

[adc82140]

The law should written as a face covering is required, and the government recommends a three layer one, whilst quoting the relevant research (ha ha!)

 

[talldave]

It's just bad law-making. One of the first principals of expecting people to obey laws is that they should be enforceable - which this one simply isn't as there's no practical way to tell what type of mask one is without looking at it closely, which is clearly not possible in this sort of situation.

I'm sure the BTP officers without masks will be more than happy to handle a mask with their germ-ridden hands in order to inspect it.

It's not a worry though as your exemption can be that you're distressed by layers 2 and 3 of a 3 layer mask.

 

[greyman42]

I was watching a repeat of The Sweeney earlier. A question occurred to me. Is it legal to wear a stocking over the head like a 70's bank blagger in place of a mask?

As daft as it sounds, yes.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

As daft as it sounds, yes.

Would fishnet stockings be acceptable or does the government specify a minimum denier for anyone considering wearing a stocking over their head?

 

[greyman42]

I'd say if the mask causes you to need to use your inhaler and you wouldn't have needed it if you weren't wearing the mask, then you are probably best not wearing one. An inhaler is a reasonably easy thing to flash at someone who says something.

I f you have an exemption then you do not need to wear a mask and you do not need to justify that to anyone. I is not the business of anyone else and people should realise this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I f you have an exemption then you do not need to wear a mask and you do not need to justify that to anyone. I is not the business of anyone else and people should realise this.

It isn't, but it is also much easier to flash an inhaler at someone than to get into a difficult and stressful debate, though which you choose will obviously depend on your personal decision as to whether an argument of principle or an easy life are more important to you.

 

[greyman42]

It isn't, but it is also much easier to flash an inhaler at someone than to get into a difficult and stressful debate, though which you choose will obviously depend on your personal decision as to whether an argument of principle or an easy life are more important to you.

I would go for the argument of principle but there is no law which says you have to explain your medical/mental condition to busy body members of the public. Many of these people will not take any notice of a flash of an inhaler anyway.

 

[AdamWW]

The law should written as a face covering is required, and the government recommends a three layer one, whilst quoting the relevant research (ha ha!)

And curiously, despite so far as I know the law specifying 3 layers, I have seen it described as a "recommendation" on the government web site...

 

[Kendalian]

The Spain quarantine debacle shows up again what a farce the masks decision was. If quarantine can be introduced at a few hours notice, then why did masks need 10 days notice if they were "so vital"?

A few more observations since I last posted, generally similar to what others have seen eg lots of wrongly fitted masks (not covering nose...), taking them on and off and putting them in pockets...ignoring social distancing...you get the picture, it's a farce.

At the height of the epidemic, a crucial message was DO NOT touch your face after touching hard surfaces before you'd washed your hands. Does that not apply anymore as so many people are fiddling constantly with masks....(I think that's what Jenny Harries was referring to saying masks had potential to make things worse)?
If it's bad now, wait a few weeks till the autumn colds start with people sneezing and snivelling into masks then touching them...who knows what will happen with COVID over winter, but I'd put money on a major flu outbreak, which ironically will likely kill more people than COVID.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The Covid app people estimate 2103 daily new cases in the UK.

I wouldn't say that's "all but died out".

An estimate? So in other words, a wild guess then?

I'll stick with the official figures, which today show just 7 coronavirus-related deaths in the UK which, considering at its peak over 1,000 people day were dying with it suggest the virus is very much on its way out.

 

[AdamWW]

An estimate? So in other words, a wild guess then?

I'll stick with the official figures, which today show just 7 coronavirus-related deaths in the UK which, considering at its peak over 1,000 people day were dying with it suggest the virus is very much on its way out.

Serious question: Do you really think that scientists just make "wild guesses", as opposed to producing the best estimates they can, complete with their assessment of the uncertainty in their figures?

I used the Covid app figure because it was handy on my phone but I've now gone and looked up the ONS web site where they calculate around 2800 new cases a day in England (95% confidence range is from 1500 to 5500) and that the incidence of new infections appears to have levelled off.

 

[Enthusiast]

Do you really think that scientists just make "wild guesses",

Quite frankly, this is not much better than a "wild guess":

(95% confidence range is from 1500 to 5500)

It's about the same as I could do on the back of a cigarette packet.

 

[westv]

Would fishnet stockings be acceptable or does the government specify a minimum denier for anyone considering wearing a stocking over their head?

I used my wife's fishnet knickers the other day so you should be fine.

 

[MikeWM]

[1] I see that Asthma UK are now correctly pointing out that an inhaler isn't a get-out, and that asthma only gives you the exemption if wearing a mask actually causes you breathing difficulties.

I meant to respond to this last week...

While what you say above is indeed true, Asthma UK have behaved appallingly over the last week, and join the list of 'charities I'm glad I've not joined or given money to'. Sometime in the middle of last week (between the 21st and 23rd) they changed their 'advice' to include this dangerous nonsense

Wearing a face covering isn’t dangerous and won’t harm you, even if you have severe asthma

but I see that statement has gone again from their website since the weekend - perhaps worried about being sued by people with severe asthma who do indeed suffer harm after wearing a mask? - and instead they say this

Wearing a mask does not reduce a person’s oxygen supply or cause a build-up of carbon dioxide. You may have read stories that say that it can, but this isn’t true.

(source here)

which I don't believe to be true either, but at least it isn't directly telling people to do something that may be dangerous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I suspect it might be a bit off too. I find (from experimenting) that wearing a mask for vigorous physical activity causes me to go quite light headed. I suspect this would mean that there will be people with severe breathing difficulties who would find the same thing when walking slowly on the level. There is no explanation for that (other than psychological, I suppose) other than the mask causing breathing to be inhibited sufficiently to reduce the blood oxygen level (or increase the blood CO2 level) in those specific people.

However, where I agree with them is that people shouldn't claim asthma as an exemption if their asthma doesn't actually cause a mask to cause an adverse effect to their breathing in the circumstances where they are being asked to wear it. I certainly don't find it causes an adverse effect to me (other than the same discomfort anyone else will experience) when walking around a shop, so I don't claim the exemption in that situation. If mandatory wearing was extended to gyms and I wanted to go to one, I would claim the exemption in that case because it would cause me an actual problem.

 

[Enthusiast]

If mandatory wearing was extended to gyms and I wanted to go to one, I would claim the exemption in that case because it would cause me an actual problem.

Or you could, of course, simply decide not to go to the gym and so contribute to the "greater good".

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Serious question: Do you really think that scientists just make "wild guesses", as opposed to producing the best estimates they can, complete with their assessment of the uncertainty in their figures?

I used the Covid app figure because it was handy on my phone but I've now gone and looked up the ONS web site where they calculate around 2800 new cases a day in England (95% confidence range is from 1500 to 5500) and that the incidence of new infections appears to have levelled off.

I think the actual daily rate of late has been between 600 and 800 but I would argue that new infections aren't really that important any more. People don't fear catching coronavirus, they fear dying from it, so the fact the death rate is now down to single figures should be a much better guide as how the pandemic is fading.

Now we have better medication to treat both the intensity and length of the virus it doesn't seem anywhere near as scary as back in March when we knew so little about it. You could even argue that most people would willingly accept catching the virus if feeling a bit sniffily for a couple if weeks meant they became immune from catching it again

 

[Journeyman]

Or you could, of course, simply decide not to go to the gym and so contribute to the "greater good".

The greater good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or you could, of course, simply decide not to go to the gym and so contribute to the "greater good".

There are certainly people arguing that. Interestingly, Duncan Bannatyne, who (a) owns a large chain of gyms, and (b) is a very strong supporter of masks, is not arguing that.