UK face coverings discussion

[DB]

The point is, the introduction of face coverings has been to clear benefit in numerous cases. Indeed, one of the OxBridge studies were the ones to sway the government and SAGE that masks are the way forward.

That's simply not the case - the 'clear benefit' you claim has not been demonstrated (at all, never mind 'in numerous cases'), and a number of academics (including a Professor of Epidemiology at Oxford) do not agree that it has been:

Oxford epidemiologists: suppression strategy is not viable

Yesterday we published a short interview with Professor Carl Heneghan about his extraordinary finding that the Public Health England daily death totals included anyone who has ever tested positive for Covid-19 (even if they recovered completely). But we wanted to learn more about the current...

unherd.com

Carl Heneghan: “By all means people can wear masks but they can’t say it’s an evidence-based decision… there is a real separation between an evidence-based decision and the opaque term that ‘we are being led by the science’, which isn’t the evidence”.

The government was swayed by what it perceived public opinion to be.

 

[Bayum]

That's simply not the case - the 'clear benefit' you claim has not been demonstrated (at all, never mind 'in numerous cases'), and a number of academics (including a Professor of Epidemiology at Oxford) do not agree that it has been:

Oxford epidemiologists: suppression strategy is not viable

Yesterday we published a short interview with Professor Carl Heneghan about his extraordinary finding that the Public Health England daily death totals included anyone who has ever tested positive for Covid-19 (even if they recovered completely). But we wanted to learn more about the current...

unherd.com

The government was swayed by what it perceived public opinion to be.

Yet Oxbridge have shown the reduction in numbers through usage of face masks and we’ve seen only some transmission in HPCs using surgical masks in hospitals. I suppose WHO have shifted their guidance based on nothing but public opinion either?

 

[Huntergreed]

I suppose WHO have shifted their guidance based on nothing but public opinion either?

Actually, the WHO have admitted a significant reason why they shifted their stance on masks was due to “increasing political pressure”

 

[DB]

Yet Oxbridge have shown the reduction in numbers through usage of face masks and we’ve seen only some transmission in HPCs using surgical masks in hospitals. I suppose WHO have shifted their guidance based on nothing but public opinion either?

There has been no study that I am aware of that shows that there is an appreciable risk of transmission in settings such as shops, or that masks reduce any such risk. The studies all seem to be either theoretical models, or using data which is general and covers changing numbers including various tactics so it's not possible to reliably conclude which made the difference - or they are studies from a medical setting, which is completely different.

The WHO pretty much admitted that they had changed their guidance as a result of political pressure from countries which had already mandated masks.

And let's not forget Spain either - cases increasing considerably despite one of the most stringent uses of masks in the world. Of course the exact role of masks is not clear, but it does strongly suggest that they don't reduce cases considerably.

 

[MikeWM]

OK - now go out and look at how people actually use masks in reality, and how often they fiddle with them!

I could fill a reasonably-sized book with the number of wrong, unhygenic mask practices I saw in just two hours wandering around Cambridge this evening.

 

[Richard Scott]

Actually, the WHO have admitted a significant reason why they shifted their stance on masks was due to “increasing political pressure”

What sort of organisation is it that is supposed to advise the world on health issues then adjusts its advice based on political pressure? That is beyond appalling.

 

[Huntergreed]

There has been no study that I am aware of that shows that there is an appreciable risk of transmission in settings such as shops, or that masks reduce any such risk. The studies all seem to be either theoretical models, or using data which is general and covers changing numbers including various tactics so it's not possible to reliably conclude which made the difference - or they are studies from a medical setting, which is completely different.

Indeed! And if this was the case, would have seen numerous outbreaks traced back to shops by now, there’s been none, further rendering the new mask law pointless.

The WHO pretty much admitted that they had changed their guidance as a result of political pressure from countries which had already mandated masks.

Indeed, although whether it’s acceptable for the worldwide health advisory group to bow in to political pressure is questionable at best.

And let's not forget Spain either - cases increasing considerably despite one of the most stringent uses of masks in the world. Of course the exact role of masks is not clear, but it does strongly suggest that they don't reduce cases considerably.

In Scotland ever since we mandated masks we’ve went from around 5 cases per day to 15-25, and yet our gracious leader says masking up should be “as automatic as using a seatbelt”, what madness this all is. If I see strong evidence proving masks do indeed reduce transmission in non clinical settings significantly then I’ll happily wear them for the time being, but until then I’m convinced it’s political nonsense, even the WHO have practically said as much when they admitted it was “political pressure”!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I've contacted my MSP regarding the mask debacle, no response as of yet. I doubt M(S)Ps will read this thread, so I suggest that anyone with concerns raises it with their constituency representative to make the points raised in this thread clear.

 

[Yew]

The point is, the introduction of face coverings has been to clear benefit in numerous cases. Indeed, one of the OxBridge studies were the ones to sway the government and SAGE that masks are the way forward.

The University of Oxford Centre for Evidence Based Medicine disagrees.

 

[Bayum]

There has been no study that I am aware of that shows that there is an appreciable risk of transmission in settings such as shops, or that masks reduce any such risk. The studies all seem to be either theoretical models, or using data which is general and covers changing numbers including various tactics so it's not possible to reliably conclude which made the difference - or they are studies from a medical setting, which is completely different.

The WHO pretty much admitted that they had changed their guidance as a result of political pressure from countries which had already mandated masks.

And let's not forget Spain either - cases increasing considerably despite one of the most stringent uses of masks in the world. Of course the exact role of masks is not clear, but it does strongly suggest that they don't reduce cases considerably.

Spain has opened up a lot more than other countries have. Nightclubs, opened to tourists etc.

Where have the WHO said they’ve bowed to political pressure, please?

 

[Bletchleyite]

My birthday was the 30th of May and I think I've yet to physically use any of the cash I got. I may have gave cash to my sister or girlfriend if I've owed them it or wanted something from a shop but I've not physically spent any of it. It's helping me greatly with saving money

I'm still on the £60 I withdrew on 25th Feb (payday), about £15 left I think. The reason for that is not that I'm not spending money, though. It's that nobody other than the local chippy want actual cash, everywhere else prefers card, so literally the only place I'm spending cash is the chippy.

And let's not forget Spain either - cases increasing considerably despite one of the most stringent uses of masks in the world. Of course the exact role of masks is not clear, but it does strongly suggest that they don't reduce cases considerably.

I don't think it is possible to draw any conclusion from Spain. It is possible masks have been overall negative (probably through risk compensation, i.e. "I've got a mask on so I can stand right next to someone"). It's also possible that had masks not been in use the spike would have been either slightly or considerably more serious. You can't really draw any conclusion from an experiment unless you are sure you have only changed one variable.

 

[DB]

Spain has opened up a lot more than other countries have. Nightclubs, opened to tourists etc.

yes - and the masks have clearly not stopped the spread from increasing.

Where have the WHO said they’ve bowed to political pressure, please?

From a BBC journalist:

https://twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1282244773030633473

We had been told by various sources WHO committee reviewing the evidence had not backed masks but they recommended them due to political lobbying. This point was put to WHO who did not deny

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Scotland ever since we mandated masks we’ve went from around 5 cases per day to 15-25, and yet our gracious leader says masking up should be “as automatic as using a seatbelt”, what madness this all is.

Has anything else changed at the same time as masks were introduced that would explain the increase, e.g. opening of things? I've lost track of where Scotland is up to.

 

[43066]

yes - and the masks have clearly not stopped the spread from increasing.



From a BBC journalist:

https://twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1282244773030633473

That really is absolutely scandalous.

 

[BJames]

yes - and the masks have clearly not stopped the spread from increasing.



From a BBC journalist:

https://twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1282244773030633473

Firstly, I agree this is really bad if true (and no reason to believe it isn't, the journalist was questioned in the comments about her sources but said that she can't reveal them for obvious reasons but it was put to the WHO).

Secondly and possibly more importantly is the fact that the masks have not helped here. If we're supposed to be using the masks as a ticket back to some more "normality", surely this evidence from Spain is exactly what is needed to prove that this is unlikely to work? They've been using masks with social distancing too.

Where do we go from here...? I can't really see evidence to suggest that face coverings are going to help, indeed they could even make it worse if people keep touching them and touching other surfaces repeatedly.

 

[Richard Scott]

Masks do seem to appear to some wearers to be a licence to do anything as long as they're wearing it. Other precautions do need to be taken. It's like 4x4 drivers thinking they're invincible in the snow then wonder why they end up in a ditch.

 

[87electric]

Follow the science is what we have constantly been told...………………….but whose science? Research and statistics can prove any point of view you want on any subject. Every so called "expert" and their conclusions pushed into the public arena need to be thoroughly examined and not taken as fact automatically, especially in these insincere media times.
The World Health Organisation and its U turn should have raised many eyebrows and I fear that information has not had the impact it should have.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And let's not forget Spain either - cases increasing considerably despite one of the most stringent uses of masks in the world. Of course the exact role of masks is not clear, but it does strongly suggest that they don't reduce cases considerably.

I find it interesting that cases have risen in Spain, France, Germany and Scotland - in each case since they mandated masks. This is, however, a sample of only four. Does anyone have figures to hand for other countries which have mandated and since that point?

If we get an increase in England after this week, that would be rather interesting in itself wouldn't it?

 

[PaulMc7]

Our case in Scotland is so weird right now but care home cases is something that's pretty problematic. Can't remember the exact dates but there was 2 days where we had 23 then 21 new cases and around 35/36 of them were in care homes. 4 from 9106 tests today though although the way it's reported especially on Twitter by the Scottish government account isn't great. People just see the initial test figure posted and panic but don't click the link to see the true number of tests across all settings. Hard to know how much of an effect face coverings have had here

 

[bramling]

I completely agree with your position. I don’t think you should have to have the hassle of explaining to people that you’re exempt from wearing a mask. However, my initial point stands, that if we lived in a culture where this was seen to be benefitting the greater good for EVERYONE, whilst recognising that there will be those not wearing masks as they are exempt, then I would question whether those exempt from wearing masks would have the issues we’ve seen over the past few days.

The difficulty is a case simply hasn’t been made for this being for the greater good you speak of. It’s a highly intrusive and uncomfortable measure, in the current situation I might well be prepared to accept that’s a negative worth having to suffer, however on top of this there’s the very real issue that it might actually be doing more harm than good. Add in that the measure is very difficult to apply in many settings, not least some workplaces including my own, and I’m not prepared to embrace it.

 

[Journeyman]

Has anything else changed at the same time as masks were introduced that would explain the increase, e.g. opening of things? I've lost track of where Scotland is up to.

Yes, masks were mandated from 24th July, and last major lockdown easing was on 15th - that included pubs and restaurants. So...there's a lot of variables involved. Mask wearing is near universal, but a lot of them are being used incorrectly, and LOADS of people fiddle with them constantly.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Yes, masks were mandated from 24th July, and last major lockdown easing was on 15th - that included pubs and restaurants. So...there's a lot of variables involved. Mask wearing is near universal, but a lot of them are being used incorrectly, and LOADS of people fiddle with them constantly.

10th July in Scotland, 24th in England.

 

[Journeyman]

10th July in Scotland, 24th in England.

Apologies, how did I get that wrong? I live in Scotland!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I am hopeful that this was sarcasm.

Face coverings are a mitigation when 2m social distancing is impossible. Not “a little bit inconvenient” or “we need to let more people in”. Impossible means impossible.

Not really. Now the virus has all but died out in the UK there's a good case for saying we can scrap both social distancing and wearing masks, but if we must have masks then there's no need for social distancing. As has been pointed out several times on here, the only risk of catching anything would be if you spent more than 15 minutes within 2 metres of someone carrying the virus, which you're not going to do in a supermarket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really. Now the virus has all but died out in the UK there's a good case for saying we can scrap both social distancing and wearing masks, but if we must have masks then there's no need for social distancing. As has been pointed out several times on here, the only risk of catching anything would be if you spent more than 15 minutes within 2 metres of someone carrying the virus, which you're not going to do in a supermarket.

Or any non-fleeting period of time within 1m. Those are the criteria for contact tracing.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I am about to go shopping for the first time since the official rule came in. I just about made things last until today - wanted to avoid weekend shopping whilst on furlough. If I find it particularly unpleasant, online shopping here I come.

 

[adc82140]

OK, today saw a woman reach in to her pocket, pull out a face mask, sneeze into it then put it back in her pocket. Behaviour like this is why the compulsory wearing of masks is worse than "what have we got to lose"

 

[LAX54]

I could fill a reasonably-sized book with the number of wrong, unhygenic mask practices I saw in just two hours wandering around Cambridge this evening.

Just come back from Town, and it was an eye opener, I would say over 80% of those in Town had the masks all wrong, the amount of tatty 'reused' disposable ones seemed most popular, saw a couple dig out a blue disposable one, that was wrapped in a hanky! then there were the ones that came out of a shop, and grabbed the mask and put it below their chin, ready for the next shop ! as for shops, of those that were actaully open, only 10% of staff, if that had masks, although of course they do not have to, what did strike me was the amounnt of people waiting outside a shop, getting drenched in the rain, making them wet and cold, and making their masks, both fabric and paper, soaking wet and pointless !

 

[westv]

One thing I find a little confusing. On the one hand I read that face coverings need to be used in conjunction with distancing. On the other hand I also read that face coverings are when people are unable to distance.

 

[bramling]

Just come back from Town, and it was an eye opener, I would say over 80% of those in Town had the masks all wrong, the amount of tatty 'reused' disposable ones seemed most popular, saw a couple dig out a blue disposable one, that was wrapped in a hanky! then there were the ones that came out of a shop, and grabbed the mask and put it below their chin, ready for the next shop ! as for shops, of those that were actaully open, only 10% of staff, if that had masks, although of course they do not have to, what did strike me was the amounnt of people waiting outside a shop, getting drenched in the rain, making them wet and cold, and making their masks, both fabric and paper, soaking wet and pointless !

My experience just now was the same, a complete shambles to be honest. It put me off as I ended up not even coming away with what I had intended to get. Footfall was conspicuously light.

I suspect we may have to see some kind of direct action to stop this nonsense. This really is going to finish off the high street. My experience on trains is that when people see someone else devoid of mask it’s not long before theirs magically comes off. Once enough people start not complying then I suspect compliance will tail off very quickly, which is what needs to happen.

I‘d be happy for there to be a couple of hours a day where masks are mandatory, then leave the rest of the day for everyone else. Later this week we may be seeing some warm weather, that’s going to be interesting.