BBC News: Rail passengers 'shun confusing ticket machines'

[Ivo]

Be nice if they would though

Nah, it wouldn't work anyway. People wouldn't accept a RailUK badge and a student card as evidence of ID for the survey.

 

[323235]

My guess would be the Evening Return tickets in Greater Manchester, to Salford/Mauldeth Road it's only 75p.

Manchester Oxford Road- Deansgate Evening Return is only 55p,the distance between the two being 29 Chains each way.

 

[pinkpanther]

By day I'm a software developer specialising in UI design and usability, so I've a particular view of such machines.

The units SWT have deployed at Bourneouth (and presumably elseware) are a UI nightmare. They quite simply aren't intuitive, and (unless you use them every day, presumably) most people seem to struggle on them. At Bournemouth there almost always seems to be a member of staff assisting customers who are having difficulties with the machines, which rather defeats the object.

They've even caught me out on occasion, and believe me that's rather difficult to do!

I dread to think what James Bach (a consultant software tester I saw speak at ACCU 2010, and who specialises in breaking embedded systems such as these by doing things that the designers don't expect real users to do) would make of them. Doubtless it wouldn't be pretty, though.

To paraphase Jon Skeet at DevDays 2009: "ATOC: Epic Fail".

 

[Green Lane]

Manchester Oxford Road- Deansgate Evening Return is only 55p,the distance between the two being 29 Chains each way.

Out of curiosity, is that a Child ticket? I checked this on the LM website earlier as I was thinking the same as you and the adult off-peak return came up as £1.10, so I assume the child fare is 55p? The bizarre thing is on the National Rail website it came up as £57, not sure what I did wrong there!

EDIT: I just tried it again, and the ADULT fare came up as 55p this time (on the NR site, but the LM site still says £1.10). I must've done something wrong the first time. oops!

Huyton-Roby child off-peak day single is 40p.

 

[jon0844]

I used to a play tester (now called a software evaluator or something sexy) and my job was to break computer games by doing things you weren't supposed to do. Probably more fun than some of the games I tested were to play normally!

More recently, I managed to break the old ticket machines - with buttons to the side of the display - to give me a ticket to any destination on the system for the price of the last ticket issued. A very simple and stupid bug, which I did make known (and, for the record, never actually did). I did this merely by playing around with them daily while waiting for my train to arrive.

Even little things like text overlapping other text shows poor design, and lack of testing. If you can mess up the display on one of the home screens, how the hell was that not noticed by someone else before being rolled out to all TVMs?

 

[gordonthemoron]

why can't they have a TVM like DBs which is basically a front end for the website?

 

[shinkansen1966]

I believe that there is a certain arrogance and pomposity about ATOC.

Too true. ATOC in a trade association who represent train companies. They do not represent the rail travelling public. So you can safely ignore their views on whether they do a good job of serving the public.

Frankly, I'd like to see wretched ATOC closed down and their functions taken in house to the Department of Transport. That would surely save a few million pounds a year in salaries, a website and maintaining an office for their organisation.

 

[wibble]

I believe that there is a certain arrogance and pomposity about ATOC.

Like any organisation, it will try and defend any negative publicity against it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Frankly, I'd like to see wretched ATOC closed down and their functions taken in house to the Department of Transport. That would surely save a few million pounds a year in salaries, a website and maintaining an office for their organisation.

You'd regret suggesting that if it actually happened!

Civil servants and governments are not renound for making decisions in the public interest. Just look at the current problems with the current franchise model and the DfT's failure to deliver ITSO/Oyster compatability in the London area....

 

[Oswyntail]

What I suspect may be needed is a "British Railways Board", responsible as railwaymen for all the publicly owned railways of Britain, setting standards (of ticket provision, machines etc) managing the franchise process, overseeing the franchises, commissioning work from Network rail, handling all associated budgets, and being the authoritative voice for the railways. ATOC (and NR to an extent) would become a pressure group within that context.

 

[jon0844]

My wife works for a community housing trust, which has a panel that decides things - including a number of tenants.

Why can't we have a board that decides things, like ticketing and so on, that comprises of people that represent different interests. In every business, you've got differing opinions based on whether you're an end-user or management.

 

[Deerfold]

Out of curiosity, is that a Child ticket? I checked this on the LM website earlier as I was thinking the same as you and the adult off-peak return came up as £1.10, so I assume the child fare is 55p? The bizarre thing is on the National Rail website it came up as £57, not sure what I did wrong there!

EDIT: I just tried it again, and the ADULT fare came up as 55p this time (on the NR site, but the LM site still says £1.10). I must've done something wrong the first time. oops!

Huyton-Roby child off-peak day single is 40p.

For some reason GM evening returns don't seem to be purchasable online. I think the NR site is the only one which even mentions them when you do a search (Northern Rail do mention them in their "Offers" section.

 

[Green Lane]

For some reason GM evening returns don't seem to be purchasable online. I think the NR site is the only one which even mentions them when you do a search (Northern Rail do mention them in their "Offers" section.

OK, thanks for the info.

 

[shinkansen1966]

You'd regret suggesting that if it actually happened!

Civil servants and governments are not renound for making decisions in the public interest. Just look at the current problems with the current franchise model and the DfT's failure to deliver ITSO/Oyster compatability in the London area....

Hmmm, very probably ! And yes, exactly what has happened with introduction of Oyster/ITSO ? Wasn't that supposed to be SW Trains franchise wide commitment by Jan 2009 ?

 

[Oswyntail]

Wasn't that supposed to be SW Trains franchise wide commitment by Jan 2009 ?

"Franchise wide commitments" as anyone involved in outsourcing knows, are the icing in the bid cake that will swiftly be dropped when "commercial reality" sets in.

 

[Greenback]

I don't think there's any need to do away with ATOC. Depsite their failings, the TOC's are entitled to have a mouthpiece to pt forward their views as a collective.

I do think that some of their functions should be taken away and passed to a more independent organisation. For one thing, ATOC should not be responsible for the routeing guide, although they would be entitled to make representations.

 

[shinkansen1966]

why can't they have a TVM like DBs which is basically a front end for the website?

As you know from before, I'm keen to follow the DB model for pricing, structure, products and services.

In this country, revenue collection is in the hands of the numerous train operators. What they collect, they largely keep. To pay for salaries, rolling stock and fuel. Some of it their revenue is passed around the other TOCs. And some of their profits are shared with the DfT through franchise premia. Or they receive a subsidy from the DfT.

So the TOCs use their own web sites, booking offices, penalty fares and TVMs to collect money to pay for their costs.

We could have a centralised system. All the fares could be collected by ATOC or DfT, and then distributed amongst the TOCs. A similar system exisits with London Buses.

This is why bus fares here in the capital are standardised and universal.

 

[wibble]

Hmmm, very probably ! And yes, exactly what has happened with introduction of Oyster/ITSO ? Wasn't that supposed to be SW Trains franchise wide commitment by Jan 2009 ?

SWT had a franchise commitment (which)to install ITSO readers at all its managed stations, and start an ITSO smartcard trial by 31 December 2009. This obligation was met by SWT.

At the same time, the DfT was supposed to fund making ITSO and Oyster compatible through the one reader. I'm not sure what the details are but the longer the DfT pontificated, the more the development cost increased.

SWT installed ITSO readers at Waterloo (as part of their commitment) but they were later removed from the gatelines as part of Oyster PAYG on National Rail as the two readers are incompatible.

SWT has run a trial of ITSO smartcards for season ticket holders (Windsor & ER to Staines) and is rolling it out across most of their network. (Except Zones 1-6 and some other locations.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As you know from before, I'm keen to follow the DB model for pricing, structure, products and services.

In this country, revenue collection is in the hands of the numerous train operators. What they collect, they largely keep. To pay for salaries, rolling stock and fuel. Some of it their revenue is passed around the other TOCs. And some of their profits are shared with the DfT through franchise premia. Or they receive a subsidy from the DfT.

Isn't that because DB (and it's subsiduaries) have a near monopoly on public transport in Germany?

So the TOCs use their own web sites, booking offices, penalty fares and TVMs to collect money to pay for their costs.

We could have a centralised system. All the fares could be collected by ATOC or DfT, and then distributed amongst the TOCs. A similar system exisits with London Buses.

This is why bus fares here in the capital are standardised and universal.

That's the difference between having a franchised and managed contract for public transport. The managed contract may work best for the customer as fares are heavily restricted, but funding for large projects generally come from taxation. With a franchise, the funding largely comes from those that use the services. (Those are my thoughts, at any rate! )

 

[Greenback]

That's the difference between having a franchised and managed contract for public transport. The managed contract may work best for the customer as fares are heavily restricted, but funding for large projects generally come from taxation. With a franchise, the funding largely comes from those that use the services. (Those are my thoughts, at any rate! )

That may be right theoretically, but I;m not sure it;s what happens in practice!