Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

[Jozhua]

Aight, I'm here to give my radically moderate opinion om this situation and mask wearing.

I actually called it a couple of weeks ago that this would happen. I've been doing a lot of my own research on COVID-19, based on scientific papers and government case releases.

The reason mask wearing was not mandated earlier, was that PPE supplies were short and the evidence was limited. Many scientists assumed that COVID would act like the flu, where masks are ineffective.

There has also been a lot of confusion about how the disease spreads. Initially, it was thought you would cough in larger droplets that would fall to the floor by around 2ish metres. If these droplets landed on you, or you touched a surface then this could put you at risk, if any were to reach your face and its veriaty of infection holes.

'Recently' (I say in quotes, WHO and UK gov have been slow to respond) scientists are seeing increasing evidence this virus stays airborne for longer periods of time, in smaller droplets. This means that, even at distances of a few meters, if ventilation is poor, there is very much a possibility of getting infected.

Outdoor spaces have more scope for dilution, allowing viral load to remain low. (Remember, you need some number of viruses to actually establish an infection)

However, indoors, this isn't so much the case, especially with the push to insulate at all costs and sealing many windows shut permanently.

This is where mask wearing helps. It captures these droplets at the source and reduces the amount reaching the air. In fact, even the face coverings being lamented as being ineffective help to reduce the numbers of infectious particles you release.

So really face coverings will be useful, and I think this will be the final push we need to reduce cases.

If you are struggling to find face masks or find them uncomfortable, the rules currently allow for things like scarves and bandanas. I ordered some very fetching Bandanas from Urban Outfitters the other day before my Manchester - Newcastle and back train trips and they were perfectly acceptable for three hours.

If masks had any effect on controlling the virus they should have been made mandatory back in April when the virus was at its peak, not now when the pandemic is as good as over.

It was assumed they would be ineffective back then, as they thought it would act more like the flu.

This is still the official line, which is why people are being encouraged to wear pointless home made ones, rather than the proper surgical ones that all the research is based on.

It is more about capturing your particles than anyone else's.

Personally, I am OK with compulsory masks in indoor public spaces if it allows a relaxation of social distancing. I think compulsory mask wearing is a more practical solution to reducing infection rates than social distancing.

That said I personally do not find them that uncomfortable, I am aware though for a lot of people this is not the case.

Yeah, I think this will be a lot more effective than social distancing. I think the only thing social distancing has succeeded in is just lowering the amount of people sharing a indoor space at the same time.

 

[LAX54]

Aight, I'm here to give my radically moderate opinion om this situation and mask wearing.

I actually called it a couple of weeks ago that this would happen. I've been doing a lot of my own research on COVID-19, based on scientific papers and government case releases.

The reason mask wearing was not mandated earlier, was that PPE supplies were short and the evidence was limited. Many scientists assumed that COVID would act like the flu, where masks are ineffective.

There has also been a lot of confusion about how the disease spreads. Initially, it was thought you would cough in larger droplets that would fall to the floor by around 2ish metres. If these droplets landed on you, or you touched a surface then this could put you at risk, if any were to reach your face and its veriaty of infection holes.

'Recently' (I say in quotes, WHO and UK gov have been slow to respond) scientists are seeing increasing evidence this virus stays airborne for longer periods of time, in smaller droplets. This means that, even at distances of a few meters, if ventilation is poor, there is very much a possibility of getting infected.

Outdoor spaces have more scope for dilution, allowing viral load to remain low. (Remember, you need some number of viruses to actually establish an infection)

However, indoors, this isn't so much the case, especially with the push to insulate at all costs and sealing many windows shut permanently.

This is where mask wearing helps. It captures these droplets at the source and reduces the amount reaching the air. In fact, even the face coverings being lamented as being ineffective help to reduce the numbers of infectious particles you release.

So really face coverings will be useful, and I think this will be the final push we need to reduce cases.

If you are struggling to find face masks or find them uncomfortable, the rules currently allow for things like scarves and bandanas. I ordered some very fetching Bandanas from Urban Outfitters the other day before my Manchester - Newcastle and back train trips and they were perfectly acceptable for three hours.

It was assumed they would be ineffective back then, as they thought it would act more like the flu.

It is more about capturing your particles than anyone else's.

Yeah, I think this will be a lot more effective than social distancing. I think the only thing social distancing has succeeded in is just lowering the amount of people sharing a indoor space at the same time.

Altough up to now, figures have been falling and falling, without the mandatory use. 11 yesteday, and we are at a 5 year low for illness related deaths overall, so the news said last week (all channels)

also WHO say: Fabric masks should consist of "at least three layers of different material" in order to be effective, . so using a scarf or bandana based on that will not cut the mustard ! which I do not think has been mentioned anywhere ?

 

[MDB1images]

I presume the Government will give information on this big change to English society via a press conference in which they evidence the reasoning for such a change(and the timing of it)?

I hope they will also guarentee some masks are kept at a price that all can afford especially as some won't be able to make their own(particularly some elderly or disabled people who use shopping as a reason to socially interact)

 

[Jonny]

A post came up in my facebook feed (from a retired registered nurse) asking where the biohazard bins are for the used masks. I was starting to wonder as well...

 

[duncanp]

A post came up in my facebook feed (from a retired registered nurse) asking where the biohazard bins are for the used masks. I was starting to wonder as well...

On the pavement, judging by my experience.

Another point is that, if we follow the rules to the letter, we are going to need several disposable masks per day, or a selection of washable ones, rather like nappies for babies.

The cost of all these masks could prove prohibitive for those on low incomes. Witness the reaction to "period poverty" and the subsequent provision of free tampons for those in need.

Of course the maskivists don't think about these issues when indulging their control freakery.

 

[adc82140]

So will the government provide each person with a free face covering? Or are people going to be forced to spend £6.50 for a pack of Tesco ones?

 

[yorksrob]

It will certainly make it more of a faff to "nip in" somewhere for something.

 

[marcouk2]

Labour are at risk of fragmenting. The C*rbynistas are not liking Starmer at all, and he is rapidly becoming known as Captain Hindsight for his lack of policies, on COVID or anything else for that matter.

Yougov Polling: Starmer vs Corbyn: how does Labour’s new leader stack up?

Among Labour voters, 73% back Starmer as most appealing to the general voter, while only 7% still hang on and say Jeremy Corbyn had a better appeal.

If he's only failed to bring 7% of the party to his side then I'd say he's doing fine

 

[Bletchleyite]

A couple of other thoughts:

1.) When does 'mask' become vaccine? I certainly won't be having a vaccine. I would expect to be treated the same as someone who has

Good luck with that. You certainly won't be travelling internationally ever again; it'll certainly work like yellow fever.

 

[Pete_uk]

Good job I have a few old t shirts I can wrap around my chops.

 

[Ianno87]

It will certainly make it more of a faff to "nip in" somewhere for something.

Not really. Just carry it with you and whip it on before you go in.

 

[Bantamzen]

Aight, I'm here to give my radically moderate opinion om this situation and mask wearing.

I actually called it a couple of weeks ago that this would happen. I've been doing a lot of my own research on COVID-19, based on scientific papers and government case releases.

The reason mask wearing was not mandated earlier, was that PPE supplies were short and the evidence was limited. Many scientists assumed that COVID would act like the flu, where masks are ineffective.

There has also been a lot of confusion about how the disease spreads. Initially, it was thought you would cough in larger droplets that would fall to the floor by around 2ish metres. If these droplets landed on you, or you touched a surface then this could put you at risk, if any were to reach your face and its veriaty of infection holes.

'Recently' (I say in quotes, WHO and UK gov have been slow to respond) scientists are seeing increasing evidence this virus stays airborne for longer periods of time, in smaller droplets. This means that, even at distances of a few meters, if ventilation is poor, there is very much a possibility of getting infected.

Outdoor spaces have more scope for dilution, allowing viral load to remain low. (Remember, you need some number of viruses to actually establish an infection)

However, indoors, this isn't so much the case, especially with the push to insulate at all costs and sealing many windows shut permanently.

This is where mask wearing helps. It captures these droplets at the source and reduces the amount reaching the air. In fact, even the face coverings being lamented as being ineffective help to reduce the numbers of infectious particles you release.

So really face coverings will be useful, and I think this will be the final push we need to reduce cases.

I've already made this point in the Scottish mask thread, but it is one I believe is worth making again. The general public cannot be expected to wear masks the way professionals who need to use them, and are fully trained (and regularly refreshed) on their use. So people will constantly touch, move, remove & replace masks when moving around shopping. This in turn will increase the likelihood not only of common surfaces being more contaminated, but also if having touched one themselves & then a mask, increase the likelihood of infecting themselves. It could actually make things worse, and because of this it was why for so long the WHO did not recommend the use of masks in the general public. They weren't slow in uptaking the mask protocol, they were trying to look at a bigger picture.

If you believe that masks are a "final push" to eradicate the virus, then I may have bad news for you. The virus isn't just going to disappear because people shove cloth in front of their faces while going shopping. As recent spikes around the globe have shown, it can pop up anywhere but seems particularly prevalent in places like food production factories (often cooled working areas with little airflow), and large, cramped housing projects where people spend extended amounts of time in very close proximity.

Masks are not a scientific solution, they are a political one. They are there to give the impression of something being done, remember when masks were mandated for public transport and the message was they were there to "reassure"? Even now when all the mask studies are put together, and there really aren't that many that actually look at non-medical masks in non-medical environments, the evidence is not all that strong. Where the evidence is much stronger is the importance of good hygiene, and having people with symptoms staying at home wherever possible. That is where the best mitigations lie, but unlike masks, that is not a cost or blame governments can easily pass onto the general public.

Not really. Just carry it with you and whip it on before you go in.

Except as above, you are not supposed to touch them without washing your hands before & after, and/or replacing them. I mean that's the proper advice for those using them in medical situations.

 

[Jonny]

Good luck with that. You certainly won't be travelling internationally ever again; it'll certainly work like yellow fever.

I'm not planning any international travel any time soon and the only country I would bother with has Jacinda A*****n showing her true (authoritarian) face, so I wouldn't go there anyway.

 

[Scrotnig]

Not a wise move for them if there is CCTV in operation, and they have any assets.

I'm not risking going in a shop without a mask on the off chance that the police might actually be interested in dealing with such a crime.

 

[Butts]

Not really. Just carry it with you and whip it on before you go in.

Thought you were going to say "whip it out" - that could definitely end in an arrest

Seriously at least you've got another couple of weeks - if it's that important why the delay ?

All aboard the "Maskless Express Shopper" to Wales !!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Not really. Just carry it with you and whip it on before you go in.

What, you mean keep your mask tucked in your pocket next to your handkerchief where all types of nasty germs will be hiding?

 

[birchesgreen]

People wear "disposable" masks once and then throw away? Oh i've been using mine for ages.

So the mask enthusiasts have won the battle, how disappointing that is. Now i expect we'll hear the calls for people to wear masks all the time when outside...

 

[ChrisC]

I had to wear a mask for the first time last week when I went for a hair cut. I absolutely hated it and it convinced me that I wouldn’t want to make a long journey of more than an hour by train.
I hate the idea of having to wear a mask in shops and disagree with it but I will wear one to enable me to continue to support my local independent shops and the small local Co op in the village. They have been fantastic throughout the lockdown and I am not going to desert them now.
It just makes it even less likely that I will return to the large supermarkets anytime soon. I certainly wouldn’t want to do a trip to a shopping centre or even city centre shopping in department stores etc.

 

[Alex C.]

I am not comfortable wearing them, but I’ll cope (It’s an inconvenience at worst). I do think this forum is a bit of an outlier when it comes to the COVID response from the public.

This poll from yesterday is interesting - well under 60% of people are wearing them in shops so why are so many for enforced mask wearing? (I know, polls aren’t necessarily reflective but I don’t think this is far off what I see day to day)

 

[Bantamzen]

Social media maskivists are out in force this morning celebrating their "victory" (yes, someone has actually described it at this). I fully expect them to now target the great outdoors as "unclean" next, and pubs / restaurants can't be far behind.

 

[island]

No.10 said something about needing the time to change legislation. Bit peculiar to be honest, I'm sure they could change it much faster if they wanted to.

It would take a very minor amendment of the law on trains to add a reference to shops. That could be done quickly in far less than eleven days if the Genuine reason for the change was public protection.

The 24th is ten days away: time for them to do three U-turns before then. If there is enough pushback they might relent.

There won’t be pushback, sadly.

It’s worth being aware that the views of the members of this forum on this topic are considerably removed from those of the general public, who view masks as a minor imposition at worst. (See also: the immediately preceding post.)

Will wearing masks actually make any difference, or is it a sop to the hysteria laden public ?

I’m going for the second one.

It will certainly make it more of a faff to "nip in" somewhere for something.

I think for most people grabbing a mask as they pop out the front door will become second nature. My wife has already installed a hanger affair on ours with half a dozen of them.

 

[Scrotnig]

Social media maskivists are out in force this morning celebrating their "victory" (yes, someone has actually described it at this). I fully expect them to now target the great outdoors as "unclean" next, and pubs / restaurants can't be far behind.

Watch out for people demanding anyone in a house with more than one person be forced to wear them indoors. I've seen that a few times now.

 

[takno]

I am not comfortable wearing them, but I’ll cope (It’s an inconvenience at worst). I do think this forum is a bit of an outlier when it comes to the COVID response from the public.

This poll from yesterday is interesting - well under 60% of people are wearing them in shops so why are so many for enforced mask wearing? (I know, polls aren’t necessarily reflective but I don’t think this is far off what I see day to day)

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I'm pretty suspicious of panel-based polling tbh. I get the impression that the sort of people who want to engage with pollsters on a regular basis are exactly the sort of people who want to make everyone else miserable but drive everywhere themselves and do their shopping online.

I've not seen above 10% mask wearing in shops anywhere, so if that is the general opinion they clearly can't care that much about it all.

 

[Bantamzen]

Watch out for people demanding anyone in a house with more than one person be forced to wear them indoors. I've seen that a few times now.

This wouldn't surprise me either. And frankly they can all <bleep> off!

 

[Scrotnig]

This wouldn't surprise me either. And frankly they can all <bleep> off!

Councils would have a field day employing "Indoor Face Covering Compliance Officers" knocking on doors and taking photographs through windows, and issuing fixed penalty notices.

 

[Smidster]

Social media maskivists are out in force this morning celebrating their "victory" (yes, someone has actually described it at this). I fully expect them to now target the great outdoors as "unclean" next, and pubs / restaurants can't be far behind.

If you are doing it on the basis of infection risk then you absolutely must now apply it to pubs and restaurants. In fact if you are using shop transmission as your baseline then we should all never leave the house again.

Compared to a shop the risk is many many times larger in those settings.

(I am strongly opposed to wearing in shops but if that is your baseline then you are much much more likely to spread in a bar)

 

[Darandio]

Or are people going to be forced to spend £6.50 for a pack of Tesco ones?

Not really, other places sell them too.

 

[stuartl]

I fear that the 'jobsworth's' will love this. I got told off in ASDA last Sunday for using the trollley entrance instead of the basket entrance to the self serve section, even though there was only one other person in there.
Why won't it apply to staff ? Surely they are at higher risk as they will come into contact with more people than you or I.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It’s odd how this forum is so far the opposite way in terms of opinion, if some of the views here were expressed elsewhere you’d be accused of murdering old ladies within 10 minutes.

I'm glad, I was starting to think I was going mad for being against this stuff. It's actually quite nice to know I'm not the only one.

 

[adc82140]

If you are doing it on the basis of infection risk then you absolutely must now apply it to pubs and restaurants. In fact if you are using shop transmission as your baseline then we should all never leave the house again.

Compared to a shop the risk is many many times larger in those settings.

(I am strongly opposed to wearing in shops but if that is your baseline then you are much much more likely to spread in a bar)

It's a week and a half since "Super Saturday", and boy have those infections peaked.

Oh wait.....