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Grand Central providing stock for peak time Northern services
- Thread starter Neptune
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Aren't those Northern services?
GC have run Calder Valley peak services for Northern for a while. It makes sense as it aids social distancing and means that the units Northern don't have to use can be used elsewhere. There are Leeds - Bradford Interchange peak time additionals being run by Northern now which used these units.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Didn't Chiltern/WSMR get into trouble for doing basically that? I guess we are in odd times.
pdeaves
Established Member
I think the difference comes down to who gives permission and when. Chiltern/WSMR just did it and got told off by the DfT for not asking first. Presumably GC/Northern have the right say-so in advance.
They do.
GC didn't run them did they? They are still Northern services that utilise a GC unit that would otherwise be sat idle during this period.
Isn't there a subtle difference?
Chiltern/WSMR was using WSMR services (Wrexham-Marylebone) to fulfill some components of Chiltern's Train Service requirement, by stopping them at extra stations.
Northern / GC is Northern (kind-of) sub-leasing GC's rolling stock during times when it is not required for a GC service; it is not using a GC train path to fulfill Northern's calls; just 'borrowing' their stock for an hour or two each day.
pdeaves
Established Member
You are correct. I over-simplified and forgot the detail that the 'GC services' are actually run on Northern's licence/safety case.
All that is happening, as my post alluded to, is that Northern are running a service that just so happens to use a 180. They've been doing it for about four years. It's not a GC service, unlike in the WSMR example.
I believe this is accurate.
There have been quite a significant number of examples of trains, crew or both together being hired between firms for a long time now, from from Greater Anglia hiring an EMT 158 to work thr first service of the day from Norwich, LNER hiring an EMT HST on Sundays, to Northern services being worked by TransPennine Express crew based at Scarborough and Cleethorpes. There was even one occasion where Northern crews worked some TransPennine Express Scotland services. Lots of these are consigned to history now.
In around 2006/7, Manchester Airport-Blackpool services were Northern services operated by TransPennine Express using ATW stock (the 175s) - or something like that.
I didn't think the 180 services had operated in more recent times?
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Bingo.
Chiltern were attempting to use an open-access operator to meet their franchise commitments, but Northern are just hiring in a unit from another operator.
Not to that extent, but the early Dumfries-Carlisle trains are Northern units and Scotrail crew, in addition to the Tyne Valley trains operated by Scotrail units. And back pre-Northern there was a through Newcastle-Whitehaven which was an ATN unit and a FNW crew beyond Carlisle.
The afternoon service hasn't been worked by a 180 in a while, but the morning one was. It was still in the Working Timetable as 2T99 0726 Halifax to Leeds in December 2019, and it's in May 2020 as as 2T99 0708 Hebden Bridge to Leeds. Of course, it doesn't seem to have been actually running since March. I can't remember what time the afternoon one was, so I don't know if it still exists in another form, such as a Hull to Halifax service (one departs Leeds at 1727), but it doesn't terminate at Hebden Bridge any more.
Thanks both - I think I’ve gotten a bit out of touch with what’s going on. It may have been the afternoon service going that threw me (and I think it was around 17:27 @Starmill - I recall intending catching it once but it never quite happened!)
The GC set on the PM peak service was at 1725 to HBD. The hire in was ended and the service changed to a 153+158 operated by a Leeds crew which went empty back to Leeds in either the May or Dec 2018 timetable change. Then in Dec 2019 the path was taken up by the Hull - Halifax service leaving Leeds at 1727.
CommuterPigeon
Member
From what I have heard, they are filling in the gaps between the 2-hourly Leeds - Preston service as far as Hebden Bridge.
Stephen1001
Member
Going by memory from when I was 9 here so apologies for any details I've got wrong, but: back in 2002 there was a First Great Western service from Hereford to London that ran with on-hire Thames Trains units. Thames Trains then got a Central Trains class 158 on hire themselves, and it turned up on that working. No idea who crewed it!
Correct. Confirmed today by a director
I read that hiring their unit to Northern may be a way of giving GC a small bit of the franchise support money without breaching the undertaking not to subsidise an open access operator. Any truth in that, or is it just to help with social distancing by making use of a unit otherwise standing idle?
Where did you read?
Given that Northern are having difficulty staffing services it seems a sensible solution.
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