Face coverings mandatory in shops in Scotland

[Journeyman]

Admittedly though I’m (pleasantly) surprised English cinemas have been allowed to reopen as soon as they have. I went this afternoon

How was it, and what measures were in place?

 

[MikeWM]

Why do you think they are so keen on electronic payment?

I think that question is a little wider - there has been a clear agenda to move to cashless for some time, part of which appears to be due to wanting to increase tracking/tracing, whether there is a virus around or not. Hence why I continue to use cash where possible

I’m not sure telling everyone who was in Tesco in a specific time period would help much anyway. To work, contact tracing needs to be fairly focused. If loads of people are being told to isolate multiple times based on minor things like that, in the end they won’t take it seriously and may ignore it the time it matters...

 

[MikeWM]

How was it, and what measures were in place?

I’ll report in the ‘new normal’ (ugh!) thread in a moment...

 

[Ian Cunningham]

No, our track and trace isn't up to anything, other than paying vast sums to Serco to keep the unemployment figures down by 14,000 or so!

Point of order! - at the risk of igniting another Scotland vs England spat, the track and trace system in Scotland is run internally by ScotNHS (I think it's based on existing public heath teams at local Trust level) and the additional staff required were directly hired by ScotNHS via it's usual recruitment system, Serco were not involved

Obviously the size of operation and staff requirement is Scotland is much smaller than in England so that approach may not have scaled up for England. However this is a Tory government, why do something within the pubic sector when you can have nice wee bung to your mates in the private sector, cynical? me?

 

[Pete_uk]

Perhaps they should print Official Medical Exemption certificates of those who are unable to wear a mask on medical grounds like the ones for seatbelt exemption

'Papers please!'

I REALLY dont think Westminster would bring in such a requirement down here.

 

[6Gman]

Goodness only knows, but we should have done, and like the inbound quarantine having failed to do it in March is not a reason not to do it now.

Indeed. In defence of the government's tardiness on facemasks there may well have been concerns about supply.

 

[kieron]

I'd like to know how long it is likely to be mandatory and also if it is deemed necessary now then why not back in March when the risk of coming across someone else with covid was much higher. It's a political statement pure and simple.

We didn't have enough disposable masks in the UK in March for the needs of health and social care workers. If people had been told they had to wear masks to do something or other, then some of the ones with access to disposable masks would have used them for those purposes. Not telling people to wear masks in shops, or on trains, or whenever, cut the risk of this sort of thing, and maybe meant our meagre supply of disposable masks went a bit further.

It's been more than three weeks since I've seen masks on sale in shops, so that doesn't explain why now. It could be part of the explanation of why no UK authority did it back then, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. In defence of the government's tardiness on facemasks there may well have been concerns about supply.

True, though they could have pushed the idea of home made fabric face coverings.

 

[DB]

Simply repeating the same claim over and over again doesn't make it true.

A recent (June 2020) study by Chu et al based on 172 observational studies indicated that transmission was lower with physical distancing, and that "face mask use could result in a large reduction in risk of infection".

Good enough for me.

Simply repeating that it is true doesn't make it true either - and I've provided hyperlinks to several sources in various discussions on here.

Even the paper you cite (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext) isn't as clearcut by any means as you imply, e.g.:

For the general public, evidence shows that physical distancing of more than 1 m is highly effective and that face masks are associated with protection, even in non-health-care settings, with either disposable surgical masks or reusable 12–16-layer cotton ones, although much of this evidence was on mask use within households and among contacts of cases

Emphasis mine - the likelihood of catching it within a household is of course much higher in a shop or train, so is not comparable. And most people won't be wearing surgical masks, or 12-16 layer cotton ones.

If it was effective, there is now plenty enough experience that it would be beyond question. The fact that there is no unanimous view among scientists who have studied it, and no concrete eveidence showing that it helps (and even the WHO are very lukewarm on the idea of mask wearing), shows that there is not compelling evidence. And for something as dystopian as this,it should not be inflicted without strong evidence.

 

[kylemore]

It's going to be reviewed by July 23rd, but don't hold your breath - Sturgeon is determined to keep up political appearances. I've found it profoundly disappointing that no-one is willing to properly account for why this is being done, how it will be measured and what the success criteria are.

Don't hold your breath - pardon the pun!

They're nursing it along until the next winter virus/flu season when they can start all over again.

Don't kid yourself all this is happening to "save lives" - if that had been the intention then they would have isolated the care homes and over 70s right from the start and thrown medical resources at them - they didn't both north and south of the border with the resulting deaths - shameful, both Johnson and Sturgeon.

This is now social engineering and economic reset - the virus is almost irrelevant.

Why?

Well that's the $64,000 question isn't it!

 

[haggishunter]

Point of order! - at the risk of igniting another Scotland vs England spat, the track and trace system in Scotland is run internally by ScotNHS (I think it's based on existing public heath teams at local Trust level) and the additional staff required were directly hired by ScotNHS via it's usual recruitment system, Serco were not involved

Obviously the size of operation and staff requirement is Scotland is much smaller than in England so that approach may not have scaled up for England. However this is a Tory government, why do something within the pubic sector when you can have nice wee bung to your mates in the private sector, cynical? me?

A small pedantic point, there are no NHS Trusts or Trust hospitals in Scotland, but geographic health boards. But that might though be why the internal NHS Scotland approach is feasible here and easier to scale up, because of the way NHS Scotland is structured as a whole, rather than fragmented into an 'internal market'?

 

[Ian Cunningham]

A small pedantic point, there are no NHS Trusts or Trust hospitals in Scotland, but geographic health boards. But that might though be why the internal NHS Scotland approach is feasible here and easier to scale up, because of the way NHS Scotland is structured as a whole, rather than fragmented into an 'internal market'?

Sorry - that was sloppy of me. Trusts were the previous structure - we have family down in Leicestershire were it is still in a Trust structure and I think I just mixed myself up.
What probably did help the planning in Scotland is that Public Health is a serparate Health Board that covers the whole of Scotland in a single overall body so policy can easily be set at a national level for local implemtation

 

[kieron]

Don't kid yourself all this is happening to "save lives" - if that had been the intention then they would have isolated the care homes and over 70s right from the start and thrown medical resources at them - they didn't both north and south of the border with the resulting deaths - shameful, both Johnson and Sturgeon.

I think this comes back to the fact that, at the start, there wasn't enough PPE in the UK. If you can't admit someone to hospital without a real risk of them contracting Covid-19 there, you can't protect them from anything.

The fact that there wasn't enough PPE was a political failure, but I find it easier to believe that the people who run this country aren't all that good at it, rather than anyone wanted any of this to happen.

None of this explains why they've gone for face coverings now, though.

 

[Butts]

Surprised when I walked into Tesco in Falkirk this Morning and was just about the only person (including staff) wearing a mask.

Perhaps it was because it was early doors (6.45am) ?

Don't the staff have to wear them, if not compliance is going to be patchy I would have thought.

 

[takno]

Surprised when I walked into Tesco in Falkirk this Morning and was just about the only person (including staff) wearing a mask.

Perhaps it was because it was early doors (6.45am) ?

Don't the staff have to wear them, if not compliance is going to be patchy I would have thought.

It's not legally required until Friday is it?

 

[fraser158]

Friday is the day but there hasn’t been any amendment to the Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions) (Scotland) Regulations 2020.

 

[Smidster]

It's not legally required until Friday is it?

I would assume it will be like what happened with Public Transport in England.

Up until the day before barely anyone was wearing a covering until it was mandatory.

 

[Huntergreed]

Went out shopping in Scotland this morning, nobody was wearing a mask (and this was a busy shop!)

The general concensus seems to be that this is madness and she’s done it just so she can say she’s “the lady who eliminated the novel coronavirus and saved Scotland”. Going on long “shopping days” is going to be very unpleasant from Friday onwards in Wcotland, and I wouldn’t be surprised if many decide to nip over the border for their bigger shopping trips just so they can breathe more freely.

 

[Richard Scott]

Went out shopping in Scotland this morning, nobody was wearing a mask (and this was a busy shop!)

The general concensus seems to be that this is madness and she’s done it just so she can say she’s “the lady who eliminated the novel coronavirus and saved Scotland”. Going on long “shopping days” is going to be very unpleasant from Friday onwards in Wcotland, and I wouldn’t be surprised if many decide to nip over the border for their bigger shopping trips just so they can breathe more freely.

That'll really help Scotland's economy. The Welsh have been doing it for a while!

 

[kylemore]

Friday is the day but there hasn’t been any amendment to the Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions) (Scotland) Regulations 2020.

Friday is Muzzle Day - so what is the legal basis for these £60 fines I keep hearing about?

 

[Journeyman]

Friday is Muzzle Day - so what is the legal basis for these £60 fines I keep hearing about?

Look, I hate compulsory masks as much as anyone, but can we stop calling them "muzzles"? It just looks immature and gives those in favour of compulsion a lot of ammo.

 

[Scrotnig]

Look, I hate compulsory masks as much as anyone, but can we stop calling them "muzzles"? It just looks immature and gives those in favour of compulsion a lot of ammo.

I think muzzles is a very good name for them. It sums up exactly what is being done to us. It's creeping into more and more areas of life now.

 

[bramling]

I think muzzles is a very good name for them. It sums up exactly what is being done to us. It's creeping into more and more areas of life now.

Reluctantly agreed. There needs to be a pushback against this, first it’s transport, then shops, and there’s certainly people who’d like to see them worn everywhere including outdoors.

I completely object to something which is clearly on flaky scientific grounds, and has the possibility of *increasing* risk - especially when people in many cases aren’t using them properly.

It’s also damaging to social cohesion, and we’ve seen enough damage in that respect done by the lockdown as a whole, people losing jobs, familiarise kept apart, et cetera.

I respect people who choose to cover their face, I quite reasonably expect the opposite to apply.

 

[Journeyman]

I think muzzles is a very good name for them. It sums up exactly what is being done to us. It's creeping into more and more areas of life now.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but it'll make you look like an idiot to your opponents, which achieves nothing.

 

[Journeyman]

Reluctantly agreed. There needs to be a pushback against this, first it’s transport, then shops, and there’s certainly people who’d like to see them worn everywhere including outdoors.

I completely object to something which is clearly on flaky scientific grounds, and has the possibility of *increasing* risk - especially when people in many cases aren’t using them properly.

It’s also damaging to social cohesion, and we’ve seen enough damage in that respect done by the lockdown as a whole, people losing jobs, familiarise kept apart, et cetera.

I respect people who choose to cover their face, I quite reasonably expect the opposite to apply.

I completely agree. You've perfectly summed up why I'm opposed to compulsory face covering. I'm just concerned that people who call masks "muzzles" will be treated about as seriously as those who called seatbelts "baby harnesses". We have a decent argument - don't trash it by using language that makes you look ill-informed and entitled.

 

[Jonny]

I completely agree. You've perfectly summed up why I'm opposed to compulsory face covering. I'm just concerned that people who call masks "muzzles" will be treated about as seriously as those who called seatbelts "baby harnesses".

I have to agree; it is when the pro-mask fetishists pick up on some piece of language and use it to make the other side look bad. I would put a caveat on it though; if you can make it look like an orinal idea then you can get attention that way.

 

[Jonny]

Don't hold your breath - pardon the pun!

They're nursing it along until the next winter virus/flu season when they can start all over again.

Don't kid yourself all this is happening to "save lives" - if that had been the intention then they would have isolated the care homes and over 70s right from the start and thrown medical resources at them - they didn't both north and south of the border with the resulting deaths - shameful, both Johnson and Sturgeon.

This is now social engineering and economic reset - the virus is almost irrelevant.

Why?

Well that's the $64,000 question isn't it!

I have to agree. Do they have advance information on the Oxford Vaccine Trial that it is likely to be at least deemed to be successful (*)? (Being tried in Brazil due to lack of cases in the UK).

(* - possibly by cooking the data analysis to show the desired outcome?)

 

[Butts]

It's not legally required until Friday is it?

What a dick I am, don't know where I got Monday from !!

Will it be compulsory for staff as well from Friday ?

 

[Journeyman]

Will it be compulsory for staff as well from Friday?

Yes.

 

[Butts]

Yes.

I suspected as much, that should have been the clue to me I had got the date wrong !!