Face coverings mandatory in shops in Scotland

[MikeWM]

But they don't serve a purpose. My local Tesco none of the staff wear masks. About 2% of customers wear a mask. Those staff are working in close proximity to each other and thousand sof customers every day. I see the same staff week after week, they aren't all falling ill. I don't see how everyone wearing masks would change that?

Increasingly, the purpose seems to be largely political rather than public health. Especially in the US, where it mostly seems to polarise pro- and anti-Trump supporters.

What's happening in America is a combination of things. Trump downplaying the crisis, criticising states that locked down, mass non-compliance with lockdowns, opening up too early, whilst the virus was still very prevalent, total lack of test and trace for far too long. Also demographics, living conditions and poor access to healthcare will be playing a part.

Also massively increased testing, as in Sweden, has caught a large number of less serious cases. (The median age of positive cases found in Florida, for example, has fell from 60-something to 30-something). Unlike in Sweden, some of the southern US states *are* having somewhat of an uptick in serious cases, but that doesn't seem to be especially unexpected as they never had a proper 'first' wave.

 

[greyman42]

Is there a list of reasons that exempt a person from wearing a mask on public transport?

 

[45107]

But they don't serve a purpose. My local Tesco none of the staff wear masks. About 2% of customers wear a mask. Those staff are working in close proximity to each other and thousand sof customers every day. I see the same staff week after week, they aren't all falling ill. I don't see how everyone wearing masks would change that?
What's happening in America is a combination of things. Trump downplaying the crisis, criticising states that locked down, mass non-compliance with lockdowns, opening up too early, whilst the virus was still very prevalent, total lack of test and trace for far too long. Also demographics, living conditions and poor access to healthcare will be playing a part.

I beg to differ on whether or not they serve a purpose. Any piece of cloth will catch droplets that would otherwise excape from an open mouth.
If you doubt it, try sneezing without covering your mouth/nose and see how far it spreads. Then try again with a covering and compare the results. Not 100% but the covering will stop some.

As regards the US, my belief is that we will see similar spikes in a couple of weeks time. I don't think that the full extent of the virus is known, although it is probably better than it was a month ago.

 

[MikeWM]

I beg to differ on whether or not they serve a purpose. Any piece of cloth will catch droplets that would otherwise excape from an open mouth.
If you doubt it, try sneezing without covering your mouth/nose and see how far it spreads. Then try again with a covering and compare the results. Not 100% but the covering will stop some.

I don't doubt that this is true. But given we don't know how likely asyptomatic transmission is, it is very hard to ascertain how much purpose that serves in preventing the spread of this particular virus. Balance against that the societal and civil liberties issues of compulsion, the fact that people aren't very good with them and quite possibly could be spreading things around *more* through improper use, and the risk to oneself of carrying around a bacteria/virus incubator over your nose and your mouth, and it seems quite reasonable that a lot of people believe the potential benefits are outweighted by the negatives.

 

[talldave]

But will enough people refuse to wear them to render the rules pointless, I wonder?

 

[Domh245]

Is there a list of reasons that exempt a person from wearing a mask on public transport?

Yes.

As with the original regulations put in place to enforce lockdown, if you fall outside of the specifically exempted groups, you just need a 'reasonable excuse', examples of which are given in section 4 of the act enforcing mask wearing on public transport - I'm not sure what similarities this bears to wearing of masks in Scottish Shops

No person may, without reasonable excuse, use a public transport service without wearing a face covering.

But the requirement in paragraph (1) does not apply—

(a)to a child who is under the age of 11;
(b)to an employee of the operator of the relevant public transport service acting in the course of their employment;
(c)to any other person providing services under arrangements made with the operator of the relevant public transport service who is providing those services;
(d)to a constable or police community support officer acting in the course of their duty;
(e)to an emergency responder (other than a constable) acting in their capacity as an emergency responder;
(f)to a relevant official acting in the course of their employment or their duties;
(g)where a person is allocated a cabin, berth or other similar accommodation, at any time when they are in that accommodation—

(i)alone, or​

(ii)only with members of their own household or a linked household;​

(h)where—

(i)a person is permitted, or ordinarily required, to board and to remain in a vehicle when using the public transport service, and​

(ii)the vehicle is not itself used for the provision of a public transport service, the person remains in that vehicle.​

For the purposes of regulation 3(1), the circumstances in which a person (“P”) has a reasonable excuse include those where—

(a)P cannot put on, wear or remove a face covering—

(i)because of any physical or mental illness or impairment, or disability (within the meaning of section 6 of the Equality Act 2010(1)), or​

(ii)without severe distress;​

(b)P is travelling with, or providing assistance to, another person (“B”) and B relies on lip reading to communicate with P;
(c)P removes their face covering to avoid harm or injury, or the risk of harm or injury, to themselves or others;
(d)P is travelling to avoid injury, or to escape a risk of harm, and does not have a face covering with them;
(e)if it is reasonably necessary for P to eat or drink, P removes their face covering to eat or drink;
(f)P has to remove their face covering to take medication;
(g)a relevant person requests that P remove their face covering.

 

[Butts]

But will enough people refuse to wear them to render the rules pointless, I wonder?

Unfortunately probably not !!

It is my belief if more people knew about the exemptions there would be less compliance. This is probably why it is not publicised heavily to the detriment of genuine exemptees.

 

[hexagon789]

I know at NR stations they are providing laynards for people exempt .

First Bus have a thing on the app people can show the driver I was told by someone

 

[Gadget88]

I work in retail and have a sunflower exemption card. On holiday from work this week I am a bit worried explaining to my boss I can’t wear one should I worry?

 

[6Gman]

I would be very surprised if this is not included in the English regulations when they are updated before Saturday - though I hope I am wrong.

It seems that right now we have pretty low infection rates and where we do have outbreaks they are pretty well contained within localities - this is a bludgeon at a problem that really doesn't seem to be there right now - Another example of introducing more restrictions after the event.

It also does real damage to the economic recovery - We are trying to get people out and about again and this is just another barrier to that. Doing anything is going to be such a chore that who is going to want to venture out? Not least because the first thing you think when you see everyone wearing masks is that there must be a very significant and impending risk everywhere.

Takes me about 4 seconds to put on my mask before going into the supermarket and a little longer to take it off (to avoid it pulling out my hearing aids). Been doing it for weeks.

"Such a chore" ?

 

[6Gman]

Presumably you aren't aware that the evidence for any actual benefit is very weak?

Simply repeating the same claim over and over again doesn't make it true.

A recent (June 2020) study by Chu et al based on 172 observational studies indicated that transmission was lower with physical distancing, and that "face mask use could result in a large reduction in risk of infection".

Good enough for me.

 

[takno]

Takes me about 4 seconds to put on my mask before going into the supermarket and a little longer to take it off (to avoid it pulling out my hearing aids). Been doing it for weeks.

"Such a chore" ?

To reiterate, your experience of it is not the same as other peoples experience, and your "no trouble at all" is a genuinely incredibly uncomfortable or scary experience for other people. That's why we don't just make up laws off the cuff without overwhelmingly good reason to do so.

 

[Smidster]

Takes me about 4 seconds to put on my mask before going into the supermarket and a little longer to take it off (to avoid it pulling out my hearing aids). Been doing it for weeks.

"Such a chore" ?

I am not so much talking about the process of putting a mask on (though do think it will reduce activity as let's be honest they aren't pleasurable to wear)

I am more thinking about the "faff" that will be associated with any leisure trip - the booking in advance, the handing over of contact details, the "social distancing patrols" , neverending perspex and yes masks. People go to the pub, or whatever other leisure activity floats your boat, because it is relaxing and a chance to get away from life pressures - the new environment being promised does not scream (sorry whisper) fun to me

 

[bramling]

Takes me about 4 seconds to put on my mask before going into the supermarket and a little longer to take it off (to avoid it pulling out my hearing aids). Been doing it for weeks.

"Such a chore" ?

Can you *really* sanitise your hands fully and put the mask on in that time?

 

[trebor79]

Takes me about 4 seconds to put on my mask before going into the supermarket and a little longer to take it off (to avoid it pulling out my hearing aids). Been doing it for weeks.

"Such a chore" ?

It's not the putting on and taking off, it's wearing the stupid thing for long periods that's a chore.
And as someone else has pointed out, it takes all the joy and pleasure out of leisure activities.
The evidence that they have any effect is extremely weak at best.

 

[6Gman]

It's not the putting on and taking off, it's wearing the stupid thing for long periods that's a chore.
And as someone else has pointed out, it takes all the joy and pleasure out of leisure activities.
The evidence that they have any effect is extremely weak at best.

I've never thought of shopping (other than, perhaps, in bookshops) as a "leisure" activity.

 

[takno]

I've never thought of shopping (other than, perhaps, in bookshops) as a "leisure" activity.

The supermarket is pretty much the high point of my week at the minute. Maybe when and if art, culture, travel, decent TV and the ability to meet friends out of the rain are back then it will be less central and I can get around the facemask thing with deliveries, but until then it's basically my social life

 

[trebor79]

I've never thought of shopping (other than, perhaps, in bookshops) as a "leisure" activity.

The supermarket is pretty much the high point of my week at the minute. Maybe when and if art, culture, travel, decent TV and the ability to meet friends out of the rain are back then it will be less central and I can get around the facemask thing with deliveries, but until then it's basically my social life

If masks are mandated for shops, there would be absolutely no logic at all in them not also being mandated for museums, cinemas, theatres etc.
In fact, there's probably more of a case for them to be mandatory in such settings instead of supermarkets. Not that I'd support such a move.

 

[MikeWM]

If masks are mandated for shops, there would be absolutely no logic at all in them not also being mandated for museums, cinemas, theatres etc.
In fact, there's probably more of a case for them to be mandatory in such settings instead of supermarkets. Not that I'd support such a move.

Contact tracing may be the difference there (assuming it works, which is a stretch).

An outbreak from a cinema etc. would be easier to track - unless we go down the route of taking contact details of everyone using a shop, which seems both deeply undesirable and also pretty impossible.

 

[Smidster]

Contact tracing may be the difference there (assuming it works, which is a stretch).

An outbreak from a cinema etc. would be easier to track - unless we go down the route of taking contact details of everyone using a shop, which seems both deeply undesirable and also pretty impossible.

Cinemas are an interesting one and I do think there is a far stronger case for masks there than in a supermarket.

The evidence I have seen is that most transmission occurs with prolonged contact between people. Yes, it can occur via surface contact but most of the time it is between people at close range for a while. That is another reason why the evidence for shops seems weak - you don't have lengthy interactions with others...at most you might pass someone briefly like on the pavement and the space itself is well ventilated.

I therefore get why you might have the rules for public transport - where it is designed to have people in close proximity for a long period so it makes sense. I could make the same argument for a cinema. It is easier to space but ultimately you still have dozens of people in a relatively small space for a couple of hours.

 

[PaulC1309]

I'd like to know how long it is likely to be mandatory and also if it is deemed necessary now then why not back in March when the risk of coming across someone else with covid was much higher. It's a political statement pure and simple.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd like to know how long it is likely to be mandatory and also if it is deemed necessary now then why not back in March when the risk of coming across someone else with covid was much higher.

Goodness only knows, but we should have done, and like the inbound quarantine having failed to do it in March is not a reason not to do it now.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Contact tracing may be the difference there (assuming it works, which is a stretch).

An outbreak from a cinema etc. would be easier to track - unless we go down the route of taking contact details of everyone using a shop, which seems both deeply undesirable and also pretty impossible.

Why do you think they are so keen on electronic payment? The need for Track and Trace (the human call centre side) is much reduced if you can be identified and then contacted automatically by using your contactless payment method. South Korea were heavily into this - identifying supermarket shoppers through their payment method.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do you think they are so keen on electronic payment? The need for Track and Trace (the human call centre side) is much reduced if you can be identified and then contacted automatically by using your contactless payment method. South Korea were heavily into this - identifying supermarket shoppers through their payment method.

I am unconvinced our track and trace system is set up to the extent of doing that, even though it really needs to be. It's a "phone a friend" service and very little more.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I am unconvinced our track and trace system is set up to the extent of doing that, even though it really needs to be. It's a "phone a friend" service and very little more.

No, our track and trace isn't up to anything, other than paying vast sums to Serco to keep the unemployment figures down by 14,000 or so! It really ought to be quite simple (excluding outliers like anonymous unregistered phones).

You go to Tesco on Thursday, feel unwell on Sunday, get tested and a positive result on Monday (yes, testing and receiving test results really ought to be that quick). You tell the T & T who you have been in close contact with, oh, by the way I was in Tesco at 1900 on Thursday. Trawl the Tesco payments system for everyone instore (say) 30 minutes each side, send them an automated text of a low level risk and to keep your eye on it. For contactless payments, banks now require a mobile number for the new security process (ie to send a one-time code) so send a similar, automated one-time message to the account holder. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Journeyman]

I'd like to know how long it is likely to be mandatory and also if it is deemed necessary now then why not back in March when the risk of coming across someone else with covid was much higher. It's a political statement pure and simple.

It's going to be reviewed by July 23rd, but don't hold your breath - Sturgeon is determined to keep up political appearances. I've found it profoundly disappointing that no-one is willing to properly account for why this is being done, how it will be measured and what the success criteria are.

 

[Gadget88]

It's going to be reviewed by July 23rd, but don't hold your breath - Sturgeon is determined to keep up political appearances. I've found it profoundly disappointing that no-one is willing to properly account for why this is being done, how it will be measured and what the success criteria are.

Will it be reviewed every few weeks then?

 

[PaulC1309]

It's going to be reviewed by July 23rd, but don't hold your breath - Sturgeon is determined to keep up political appearances. I've found it profoundly disappointing that no-one is willing to properly account for why this is being done, how it will be measured and what the success criteria are.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Journeyman]

Will it be reviewed every few weeks then?

Every three weeks, like all the lockdown measures.

 

[MikeWM]

Cinemas are an interesting one and I do think there is a far stronger case for masks there than in a supermarket.

Problem is that the business model of pretty much every cinema is based on people eating overpriced food and drink while watching the film. If you get rid of that, the cinema will go broke.

Plus the risk seems lower than in pubs or restaurants, which also can’t sensibly mandate mask-wearing. They tend to be less well ventilated and have people facing in various directions, talking, etc. Cinemas have high ceilings and people all facing the same way, mostly silent.

Admittedly though I’m (pleasantly) surprised English cinemas have been allowed to reopen as soon as they have. I went this afternoon