Additional retailers to reopen from June 15th

[trebor79]

Yes, the new 'norm' I'm afraid, and not just in those shopping malls which are in effect private property. I live on a tertiary shopping street in a small town, and, overnight last night, arrows were stencilled (?) on to our pavements indicating you should use one in one direction, and the opposite in another, to be 'policed' from tomorrow by individuals recruited by the local BID, so all the poor devils that are forced to pay this 2% business levy on their shops will be forced to pay for these individuals harassing their possible customers.

Is there any legal basis for the enforcement of a one way system on public streets?
If they ask me politely I'll thank them for their concern and carry on as I was. If they try to boss me around they'll get a slightly more robust response and I'll carry on as I was.

 

[Busaholic]

Is there any legal basis for the enforcement of a one way system on public streets?
If they ask me politely I'll thank them for their concern and carry on as I was. If they try to boss me around they'll get a slightly more robust response and I'll carry on as I was.

Legal basis = almost certainly not, on a public street. Shopping malls and individual shops a different matter of course: you can be required to leave if told to by the owner or their agent, no reason given, though you might well have a case for redress if it was done on the basis of your race, sex, infirmity etc, but that would have to wait. The problem is if the person berating you decides to call the police for assistance and you have to explain your side of it to a police officer (a) not in command of the facts and (b) who might take against you as a 'troublemaker' for challenging the authority of the bossy individual.

 

[MikeWM]

Is there any legal basis for the enforcement of a one way system on public streets?

I’m sure the government will be along with some ‘too urgent to ask Parliament’ regulations about it soon enough.

Really though, this is like something I came up with as a 10 year old, when for some reason I decided pavements needed to be more like roads. Can’t remember why, I was 10! Which is probably close to the mental age of those coming up with these ideas now.

 

[trebor79]

Legal basis = almost certainly not, on a public street. Shopping malls and individual shops a different matter of course: you can be required to leave if told to by the owner or their agent, no reason given, though you might well have a case for redress if it was done on the basis of your race, sex, infirmity etc, but that would have to wait. The problem is if the person berating you decides to call the police for assistance and you have to explain your side of it to a police officer (a) not in command of the facts and (b) who might take against you as a 'troublemaker' for challenging the authority of the bossy individual.

I might see it as my civic duty to reject an arbitrary attempt to limit my freedom.
If there's legislation then that's different (but no less stupid).

 

[adc82140]

I think you would be long gone on your way before the police had the resources to deal with such a piffling matter.

 

[Enthusiast]

The problem is if the person berating you decides to call the police for assistance

That's not a problem at all because by the time the police arrive (if they arrive at all) you could have been on your way (against the arrows).

Regretfully this may get nasty. Local Authorities will be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of the multitude of "advisory regulations" they can introduce and the population will get more and more peed off with it. I think we all need to understand that the chances of contracting the virus by passing somebody in the street are somewhat slim and get the appropriate grip.

 

[DelayRepay]

I think you would be long gone on your way before the police had the resources to deal with such a piffling matter.

In a village maybe. In a town centre it would not surprise me if there are police officers stationed there specifically to enforce these rules...

 

[Bantamzen]

In a village maybe. In a town centre it would not surprise me if there are police officers stationed there specifically to enforce these rules...

I would hope that our Police forces would not be employed to enforce an arbitrary system inside shopping centres.

 

[DelayRepay]

I would hope that our Police forces would not be employed to enforce an arbitrary system inside shopping centres.

Perhaps it is better to travel in hope than to arrive. I am not sure how true and widespread it was, but there were reports of police checking that people had not been buying 'non essential' items from supermarkets during the lockdown, even though you were allowed to buy any item from a shop that was allowed to open. There were also reports of them policing car parks and using drones to shame people going for walks in the countryside. And the one in Rotherham where they told a family that they were not allowed to sit/play in the front garden. So given all this, I think some police will relish the thought of being able to enforce arbitrary rules in shopping centres.

NB - A long long time ago, but when I used to work in a shopping centre, there was a team of four officers based in the shopping centre, and funded by the shopping centre. They were mainly to deal with shoplifters, but I expect if they are still there they will be patrolling the queues today and 'having words' with anyone not following the arrows.

 

[Ianno87]

Bit surprised that the station ones at Cambridge and Norwich also seem to have been closed the whole time, but then again the Cambridge one is extremely unreliable at being open at the best of times.

Cambridge became a notable problem after May 2018, when Platform 1 stopped being the default London platform. I suspect that hit the unit's trade fairly significantly.

 

[Bantamzen]

Perhaps it is better to travel in hope than to arrive. I am not sure how true and widespread it was, but there were reports of police checking that people had not been buying 'non essential' items from supermarkets during the lockdown, even though you were allowed to buy any item from a shop that was allowed to open. There were also reports of them policing car parks and using drones to shame people going for walks in the countryside. And the one in Rotherham where they told a family that they were not allowed to sit/play in the front garden. So given all this, I think some police will relish the thought of being able to enforce arbitrary rules in shopping centres.

I am pretty certain, nay absolutely certain that this rumour was just that. Indeed at the start of the lockdown I can remember an elderly gentleman telling anyone that would listen in a supermarket queue that "they" would be checking everyone's shopping bags as they left the store. It wasn't clear who he thought "they" were, but this followed reports of a Police chief (I think in Wales) suggesting that his officers might be forced to randomly check people's shopping. He was quickly put back in his box.

​

NB - A long long time ago, but when I used to work in a shopping centre, there was a team of four officers based in the shopping centre, and funded by the shopping centre. They were mainly to deal with shoplifters, but I expect if they are still there they will be patrolling the queues today and 'having words' with anyone not following the arrows.

It is not uncommon for officers to patrol shipping centres to deter crime. Not following arrows stuck onto the floor by it's owners is not a crime. As I said I would hope that the Police would not be engaging in such petty matters.

 

[DelayRepay]

I wish I shared your optimism @Bantamzen but I am pretty sure we will see some cases. Of course it all depends on the context.

 

[Bantamzen]

I wish I shared your optimism @Bantamzen but I am pretty sure we will see some cases. Of course it all depends on the context.

If we do, I would expect that they be reminded by the government that things like one-way systems in stores is guidance, not law. I for one would certainly raise a complaint if a Police officer attempted to enforce something that they were not mandated to do.

 

[DelayRepay]

If we do, I would expect that they be reminded by the government that things like one-way systems in stores is guidance, not law. I for one would certainly raise a complaint if a Police officer attempted to enforce something that they were not mandated to do.

As would I. But as I prefer an easy life, I won't go out of my way to break any of these 'rules'. But if there is nobody queuing/coming the other way I won't worry about going the wrong way down a one way section. I did get a dirty look from the Queue Monitor at a local DIY shop because I lifted the tape up to get into the store (nobody else was waiting) rather than following their carefully constructed zig-zag queue system.

 

[AM9]

If we do, I would expect that they be reminded by the government that things like one-way systems in stores is guidance, not law. I for one would certainly raise a complaint if a Police officer attempted to enforce something that they were not mandated to do.

But a store can prevent anybody going the wrong way if they choose. Those who think that isn't so can remonstrate as much as they want, at which point the store can ask them to leave. Given that most shoppers are generally prepared to comply in the interests of helping others *, those ranting about 'their' (wrongly assumed) rights will find themseles isolated very quickly. Failure to do so would probably result in a call for the police to explain the situation. Any attempt to re-enter and cause disruption could result in refused entry. Most shops are private property so all this self-righteous protesting doesn't change that at all.
* in my experience

 

[Bantamzen]

But a store can prevent anybody going the wrong way if they choose. Those who think that isn't so can remonstrate as much as they want, at which point the store can ask them to leave. Given that most shoppers are generally prepared to comply in the interests of helping others *, those ranting about 'their' (wrongly assumed) rights will find themseles isolated very quickly. Failure to do so would probably result in a call for the police to explain the situation. Any attempt to re-enter and cause disruption could result in refused entry. Most shops are private property so all this self-righteous protesting doesn't change that at all.
* in my experience

Every store I have visited that implemented a one-way system quickly abandoned them when they came to the conclusion that they were not workable. So if a store wants to waste resources by using staff to enforce them, I'll simply exit and take my business elsewhere.

 

[AM9]

Every store I have visited that implemented a one-way system quickly abandoned them when they came to the conclusion that they were not workable. So if a store wants to waste resources by using staff to enforce them, I'll simply exit and take my business elsewhere.

That's your choice. Those businesses that decide to run certain measures recommended by various medical and other govenment bodies for the protection of customers and staff have the freedom to do so. The fact is that some shop premises are better suited to such order, (and it seems so are customers, be it by the locality, their demography or any other group characteristic). Time will tell whether hot spots for infection appear especially where caution is replaced by lax controls.

 

[Bantamzen]

That's your choice. Those businesses that decide to run certain measures recommended by various medical and other govenment bodies for the protection of customers and staff have the freedom to do so. The fact is that some shop premises are better suited to such order, (and it seems so are customers, be it by the locality, their demography or any other group characteristic). Time will tell whether hot spots for infection appear especially where caution is replaced by lax controls.

I would be very surprised if my local Co-op, or for that matter any other store not enforcing a one-way system triggered hotspots. Very surprised.

 

[nlogax]

Every store I have visited that implemented a one-way system quickly abandoned them when they came to the conclusion that they were not workable. So if a store wants to waste resources by using staff to enforce them, I'll simply exit and take my business elsewhere.

What makes your local stores' one way systems screw up so badly? Every store around here seems to manage perfectly fine. If there are problems with implementation, it's usually with people deciding they can't be bothered to follow the arrows and shop in their normal dithering fashion.

 

[trebor79]

But a store can prevent anybody going the wrong way if they choose. Those who think that isn't so can remonstrate as much as they want, at which point the store can ask them to leave. Given that most shoppers are generally prepared to comply in the interests of helping others *, those ranting about 'their' (wrongly assumed) rights will find themseles isolated very quickly. Failure to do so would probably result in a call for the police to explain the situation. Any attempt to re-enter and cause disruption could result in refused entry. Most shops are private property so all this self-righteous protesting doesn't change that at all.
* in my experience

Indeed, on private premises the owner can enforce whatever rules they like. But as far as I know, there is absolutely no legal basis for anyone to insist that I only walk in one direction on a public highway. I think the risk inherent in crossing the road repeatedly to comply with such nonsense is greater than the risk of me catching or spreading a virus through a split second act of walking past other people.

 

[Class 33]

I've just been down to Bristol's Broadmead shopping centre to get just a few things in Poundland and Wilkinsons, both of which have been open for a while now anyway. Had a walk through the bottom floor of the 3-story Galleries shopping centre, and of all the stores on that floor only WHSmith's and Boots were open. Though I think some of these stores don't open until 9:30, and maybe some of them are opening later in the week.

On my way back to the bus stop, I passed Primark. And wow, a lot of people keen to get shopping in Primark already. Probably about 300 people queuing up to get in! And by and large, mostly young women! Godknows how long you'd be waiting to get in there if you were at the end of that queue!

Still, good to see a number of the shops re-opening today and that the lockdown is easing further. Now all we need is to get this social distancing nonsense eased and ultimately scrapped altogether!

 

[Ianno87]

My wife walked through the Grafton Centre in Cambridge after nursery drop off. Most shops shuttered and dark.

 

[MrTurbostar170]

How are shops that aren't Primark doing so far?

 

[Bantamzen]

What makes your local stores' one way systems screw up so badly? Every store around here seems to manage perfectly fine. If there are problems with implementation, it's usually with people deciding they can't be bothered to follow the arrows and shop in their normal dithering fashion.

Because people. I know that sometimes its hard to imagine a world where people's lives aren't centred around strict rules and lists, but it is a reality. Take my local Co-op immediately after the lockdown started, they kept to strict numbers in-store (I believe it was little more than a dozen), with staff set aside to "enforce" the one-way system. And so the time it was taking people to shop in-store grew (which will happen if you are forced down isles you where you have no intention of buying anything from), so the queues to get in grew outside. Slowly but surely the counting in, counting out was quietly dropped, and as more people were able to shop at the same time, so staff were required to man checkouts, run stock-ups etc, and thus people just realised that not sticking rigidly to the one way system wasn't going to result in deaths of thousands of people, nor would the Police come crashing through their doors to lock them up. And so as customers relaxed, so did staff, meaning they weren't wheeling stock around the store & back unnecessarily. And do you know what the net result was? Less time in the store per customer. It also means that the shelves are better stocked, and so people aren't having to drive around various stores to get what they need.

Maybe in some places people are sticking to them, that's their choice. But one-way systems are merely part of guidance, there is no compulsion to use them, nor is there evidence that they have any effect. If anything, as above, they seem to actually increase the time people spend in-store, and increase the number of interactions as people wander around isles that they would not otherwise go to. And as I have found in some larger stores that try to use them, they actually cause real problems as queues for checkouts snake up them causing no end of issues.

A very British over-the-top to a solution, that isn't really a solution at all. But if it keeps a few more middle managers locked in endless Skype meetings about the next round of "solutions"....

 

[nlogax]

Maybe counting in / out shouldn't have been dropped at your store. My local Co-op still has it. The policy isn't being enforced by anyone (it's just a large sign outside behind which people line up) but it is being adhered to. The one-way system seems fine and people are abiding by it. Yeah it's just guidance but it seems sensible and I think some are making it out to so much more of a massive problem than it needs to be. I don't get the drama.. through some of the worst of this it's ensured people get what they need with the minimum of risk. It's not ideal but over doing nothing it's made a lot of sense. When it worked, it really worked. It just took one or two people to upset the system and in certain places like yours, it obviously broke.

Now of course we're in a different position and it's time to do away with a lot of this stuff. Which is why this thread exists

 

[Bishopstone]

Lots of stores on my patch aren’t opening until 10.00 this week. It will be interesting to see whether this becomes permanent, to make a saving on wages, as many retailers do little business in the first hour - with obvious exceptions re. newsagents and convenience food etc.

 

[Bantamzen]

Maybe counting in / out shouldn't have been dropped at your store. My local Co-op still has it. The policy isn't being enforced by anyone (it's just a large sign outside behind which people line up) but it is being adhered to. The one-way system seems fine and people are abiding by it. Yeah it's just guidance but it seems sensible and I think some are making it out to so much more of a massive problem than it needs to be. I don't get the drama.. through some of the worst of this it's ensured people get what they need with the minimum of risk. It's not ideal but over doing nothing it's made a lot of sense. When it worked, it really worked. It just took one or two people to upset the system and in certain places like yours, it obviously broke.

Now of course we're in a different position and it's time to do away with a lot of this stuff. Which is why this thread exists

It didn't so much break, it just wasn't needed. Being very much a local store (for local people) dropping by for a pint of milk shouldn't entail wandering up and down every isle just to appease some civil servant's idea of a safety measure.

 

[al78]

What makes your local stores' one way systems screw up so badly? Every store around here seems to manage perfectly fine. If there are problems with implementation, it's usually with people deciding they can't be bothered to follow the arrows and shop in their normal dithering fashion.

M&S in Horsham would be very difficult to put a practical one way system in, because there is only one way in and out*, so you would either have to have those coming in and those leaving passing within 2m, or have staff on the door only letting a person in when the way ahead is clear. The latter would result in queues backing up through Swan Walk which would limit people's ability to socially distance within the shopping mall.

*The food section only has one narrow way in and out as well.

 

[nlogax]

It didn't so much break, it just wasn't needed. Being very much a local store (for local people) dropping by for a pint of milk shouldn't entail wandering up and down every isle just to appease some civil servant's idea of a safety measure.

To your point.. our store has milk on the first aisle. Easy in, easy out.

 

[Bantamzen]

To your point.. our store has milk on the first aisle. Easy in, easy out.

Right at the back in mine....