Northern new rolling stock - what would you have ordered?

[squizzler]

I would probably have gone all-in with 769's as a stopgap to buy time for the electrification programme to make a real difference. Probably just as well I wasn't in a position to make that happen.

 

[BayPaul]

I think I would have gone for an all bi-mode, commuter-spec (relatively high-density seating, perhaps like 707s with wide central aisle for standing and/or some areas of 3+2), doors at thirds with large standbacks, fast acceleration, with gangway doors. This would then allow the 170s and 158s to operate as the longer distance Connect routes. I would still have included some 'easy' long distance features like comfy seating, seat back tables, WiFi and USB, and have reasonable seat spacing so the new trains could work longer routes acceptably, especially Windermere / Barrow. Even without the benefit of hindsight, it was inevitable that plenty of decent electric stock would soon be available, so this should have been less of a priority for brand new stock.

As far as possible, I would have tried to reduce the ridiculous number of different fleets. Possibly this would have meant taking 158s from Scotrail rather than 170s, scrapping the 155 microfleet, and if possible reducing the number of electric classes too. Obviously the 789s would also not have been required.

Disclaimer - I don't live in the Northern region, and I haven't added up any numbers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I would have gone for an all bi-mode, commuter-spec (relatively high-density seating, perhaps like 707s with wide central aisle for standing and/or some areas of 3+2), doors at thirds with large standbacks, fast acceleration, with gangway doors. This would then allow the 170s and 158s to operate as the longer distance Connect routes.

This is a good point. The 195s are ideal regional units with EMU-like acceleration and standbacks but then InterCity style seating layout. It's a bizarre disconnect.

Directly replacing the Pacers and 150s with these (with a more regional style layout) and keeping 158s and 170s on the long distance stuff would have made much more sense, I agree.

 

[py_megapixel]

As far as possible, I would have tried to reduce the ridiculous number of different fleets. Possibly this would have meant taking 158s from Scotrail rather than 170s, scrapping the 155 microfleet, and if possible reducing the number of electric classes too.

It's worth noting that Northern did take a few 158s from ScotRail, I remember being on one a few years ago operating a Northern service but branded as ScotRail

As for scrapping the 155s I think that would have been unwise. Northern is a bit short of DMUs as-is; scrapping the 155s would probably have caused 156s to be needed to replace them which in turn would have reduced numbers of double sets working commuter services such as in Leeds and Manchester.

Also it probably wouldn't be plausible to reduce the number of electric classes without a follow-on order of 19 4-car 331s to replace the 319s. And as you quite rightly said, new electric stock really shouldn't be a priority at the moment.

Edit: actually only 10 would be needed because there are still 9 323s unaccounted for

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 365s could fill in the gap, no need for new, they're decent EMUs and sitting unused.

 

[BayPaul]

As for scrapping the 155s I think that would have been unwise. Northern is a bit short of DMUs as-is; scrapping the 155s would probably have caused 156s to be needed to replace them which in turn would have reduced numbers of double sets working commuter services such as in Leeds and Manchester.

I was thinking that my new bi-modes would be taking over double-set commuter 156 services, but 155 replacement perhaps not a priority

Also it probably wouldn't be plausible to reduce the number of electric classes without a follow-on order of 19 4-car 331s to replace the 319s.

I was thinking additional 319s would have been the original plan, revised to all the 323s and perhaps 365s or 379s once it became clear that they were available, as well as the 333s of course, but I haven't added it up.

 

[BayPaul]

Also these EMUs wouldn't have come in time, none of the 379s, 350/2s or 707s has left their operator yet and the last one already has another operator waiting for them.

There are approx 25 stored 319s (if Northern hadn't been part of the 769 programme, more if the whole programme hadn't happened) and 19 365s, together this would have been enough to mean that none of the 331s weren't required under my suggested plan, as well as allowing the 322s to be retired for a more consistent fleet, especially if some of the bimodes operated on routes currently used or planned for 331s, such as Windermere. As other more modern trains became available, such as 379s (for example) and additional 323s, the 319s could be binned, leaving an electric fleet of 16x333, 43x323, 30x379 and say 10x365. Current fleet is about 96 electrics.

 

[py_megapixel]

There are approx 25 stored 319s (if Northern hadn't been part of the 769 programme, more if the whole programme hadn't happened) and 19 365s, together this would have been enough to mean that none of the 331s weren't required under my suggested plan, as well as allowing the 322s to be retired for a more consistent fleet, especially if some of the bimodes operated on routes currently used or planned for 331s, such as Windermere. As other more modern trains became available, such as 379s (for example) and additional 323s, the 319s could be binned, leaving an electric fleet of 16x333, 43x323, 30x379 and say 10x365. Current fleet is about 96 electrics.

I would suggest that if they were taking on the 379s (of which there are only 29 not 30 IIRC) then taking on the 6 similar 387s that c2c will be replacing soon would make sense, unless there is work for them on Great Western Railway.

As for the 319s, they are noticably life-expired. When they are substituted in place of 323s they struggle to keep to the timings because of what is by modern standards quite poor acceleration.

 

[BayPaul]

I would suggest that if they were taking on the 379s (of which there are only 29 not 30 IIRC) then taking on the 6 similar 387s that c2c will be replacing soon would make sense, unless there is work for them on Great Western Railway.

As for the 319s, they are noticably life-expired. When they are substituted in place of 323s they struggle to keep to the timings because of what is by modern standards quite poor acceleration.

That would work, as would using the 350/2s, or ordering a few extra bi-modes. I agree that the 319s are past their best, I guess under my plan they would probably only have another year or so to go, similar to the actual Northern plan, though with a few more of them.