Northern new rolling stock - what would you have ordered?

[py_megapixel]

With enough of Northern's fleet now in service for us to see what the new trains are like on most routes, I thought it would be nice to speculate about what could have served the North better. Assume that your suggestion needs to cover a similar set of diagrams to the Civities (i.e. full fleet replacement is not an option but you could order more or longer trains for more capacity if you thought it was justified), what type of train (or mixture of types of train) would you have ordered?

I'll start by saying whatever was ordered should have had better seating. Some of the routes these trains are allocated to are quite long and the Fainsa "Ironing Boards" simply aren't adequate. (However for shorter journeys up to half an hour or so they are perfectly fine). I do think that a distinction should have been made between the regional express (Northern Connect) and commuter stock, perhaps with higher density seating and no tables in the commuter variant, and an extra toilet and more comfortable seats in the regional variant.

However there are undoubtedly other things that could have been improved. So that's what I created this thread for.

 

[Energy]

Probably still civitys, diesel/bimode has to be an option and civitys are meant to be quite cheap which is important considering that Northern is quite heavily subsidised. Maybe 3/4 car bimodes and some electrics with end gangways however as you are saying no full fleet replacement I would go for bimode and some electric 5 x 23/24m carriages and without gangways at the end of the unit to provide more cab space as they aren't really needed on this unit of this anyway. For seats, either FISA Lean or a Sophia with a better cushion.

 

[43096]

FLIRTs, as per Anglia. The diesel units would have been delivered as electro-diesels to make best use of the wires and make them future-proof. We wouldn’t be having debates about 769s or batteries/bionic duckweed for Windermere if they’d gone with this.

 

[Energy]

FLIRTs, as per Anglia. The diesel units would have been delivered as electro-diesels to make best use of the wires and make them future-proof. We wouldn’t be having debates about 769s or batteries/bionic duckweed for Windermere if they’d gone with this.

I like flirts but apparently their diesel range isn't that great, I believe they are also quite expensive.

 

[Non Multi]

There was that provisional new DMU order for FGW that was canned just over a decade ago because of electrification. That order could and probably should have been reassigned to the Northern or Welsh franchises. Instead there was a chronic DMU shortage exacerbated by the deadline for accessibility. I presume the order would have been 3x23m units similar to the 172s.

 

[Energy]

There was that new DMU order for FGW that was canned just over a decade ago because of electrification. That order could and probably should have been reassigned to the Northern or Welsh franchises. Instead there was a chronic DMU shortage exacerbated by the deadline for accessibility. I presume the order would have been 3x23m units similar to the 172s.

I believe 172s were submitted for it, it was for FGW, Northern Rail and I believe FTPE but due to planned electrification in the North and GWML they stopped the program, this wasn't an issue in the west as electrification happened and many turbos have been cascaded, however lots of Northern electrification got cancelled to save money, causing the shortage of DMUs Northern have today.

 

[Non Multi]

I believe 172s were submitted for it, it was for FGW, Northern Rail and I believe FTPE but due to planned electrification in the North and GWML they stopped the program, this wasn't an issue in the west as electrification happened and many turbos have been cascaded, however lots of Northern electrification got cancelled to save money due to the uncertainty around Brexit (however this is not a political thread), causing the shortage of DMUs Northern have today.

Thanks for clarifying that. I thought it was very dogmatic to pull the plan when some of the 2nd gen DMUs were going to require replacement in the next decade anyway. The oldest 150s must be 35 or 36 years old now.

 

[Domh245]

Northern electrification got cancelled to save money due to the uncertainty around Brexit

I've never heard that last bit before....

 

[Energy]

I've never heard that last bit before....

I've heard it but I can't find my source anymore, I'll edit it now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd have been more than passingly tempted by FLIRTs for the "coup" of having a 100% accessible with no assistance network.

I would have gone for a standard fleet of 3x24m equivalent bi-mode units (so for FLIRTs, it'd be 4-"car" sets with one central generator module), and instituted a programme of platform extensions so formations of 3 and 6 would be the standard. Keep it simple - Ryanair and easyJet get that - one type of unit, one set of staff training, anything works with anything on any route. A requirement would be to have the prime mover and related equipment e.g. fuel tanks on removable rafts so they could later be swapped for batteries or whatever.

Given that pretty much everything Northern has is ageing, it would be good to be able to fund a full fleet replacement so Northern operated only one type of unit.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Pretty much what was ordered, BUT:

• End gangways on all units.
• The electric units for West Yorkshire being a subfleet with high-density seating (no tables, more airline seating, possibly 3+2 in vehicle end sections).
• Diesel-Electric transmission on the self-powered units, to allow future bi-mode upgrades.
• Either include doors between carriages rather than open gangways, OR full-width Overground-style connections.

 

[HSTEd]

If a FLIRT with an end gangway was available, order an electrodiesel FLIRT with end gangways.

Otherwise a single large class of end gangwayed DMUs and single large class of end gangwayed EMUs.
Replace as much of the rolling stock as possible with a uniform fleet of new units.

So reSprinterisation.

 

[YorksLad12]

I've no problem with the units per se. Having essentially the same train for diesel and electric always made sense to me (although I would have classed them as 1XY and 3XY if ranges were available, rather than the way they were done). The S7 and S9 underground stock is interesting; you get an unobstructed view through the whole train (if you have really good eyesight, or a telescope). Then again, they don't have toilets to fit in... Haven't been on/seen a FLIRT so can't compare with those.

I do wish they'd done a better job on the internals though. When even the tables don't match up with windows you know something's gone wrong! I'd have the tables in the middle third of each car, the rest being airline seating. The entrance vestibules are good for standing and passenger movements but that and the 2+2 seating is about the only thing they got right.

 

[Mollman]

It's hard to know what alternative DMUs could have been purchased, a lot of the issues with the 195s are down to the cheap as possible spec. Ideally they would have been 3 & 4 car units with two or three toilets per unit, or ordered them as now but with end corridor connections and an extra toilet in 3 car units. EMUs should have at least one extra toilet. Bi-modes should have been ordered for the Manchester - Barrow and Blackpool North - York services. Windermere electrification should have been funded as a 'lets see how low cost we can make it' exercise allowing EMU operation on these services.

 

[darloscott]

Let's not lose sight of the fact if we up the price we paid we'd likely have got less units to play with, meaning more older units staying (or the fleet being squeezed even harder)

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Sadly if all the Northern Fleet was made Flirts you'd 1stly need to find a way of speccing 2 doors per carriage, you'd need 745s (for wires) and 755s (755s specced as electro-diesel)
They'd need to be able to work in multiples with end doors and then they would be perfect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sadly if all the Northern Fleet was made Flirts you'd 1stly need to find a way of speccing 2 doors per carriage, you'd need 745s (for wires) and 755s (755s specced as electro-diesel)
They'd need to be able to work in multiples with end doors and then they would be perfect.

Stadler offer 2 doors per coach if you want it, the Welsh ones will have. I don't believe they offer end gangways, but then 195s and 331s don't have end gangways either.

 

[Bevan Price]

I agree with much of what others have posted.
Full electrification of all "big city" suburban networks should be the ideal target, but in the interim:-
No DMUs with fewer than 3 coaches, and many with 4 coaches.
No EMUs with fewer than 4 coaches.
End gangways on everything.
Keep everything "simple", reduce dependence on computers, sensors, and other things that can create avoidable problems.
New DMUs, when displaced by electrification, to be cascaded to replace ageing "Sprinter family" dmus.

 

[xotGD]

Mark 4s for Nottingham - Carlisle services.

 

[tbtc]

If you assume that we have roughly the same budget to play with as Arriva had (i.e. we can't order thousands of carriages, have to keep things within the same kind of financial envelope, can't assume hundreds of miles of additional electrification) then I guess my main hang-up would be how much more expensive a bi-mode train would be - e.g. Arriva ordered 150 diesel carriages - how many bi-mode carriages could they have got for the same money? If it'd mean a dozen fewer carriages then they should have ordered bi-mode. If it's an order closer to a hundred carriages then there's a tipping point at which bi-mode becomes too costly - I suspect that nobody on here knows what that is for certain, but many of us (myself included!) would prefer bi-mode.

I think that the main priority with the new self powered carriages would be something closer to a Pacer/150 replacement. In hindsight there are going to be lots of 90mph/100mph trains on the second hand market as other TOCs cascade stock away (158/170/175/185s etc) - enough trains fast enough to work the "flagship" Northern services. The priority should have been for fast accelerating trains capable of soaking up large volumes of passengers on routes like the Warrington Central one. Instead, they've ordered new trains for the "flagship" services and tried to cascade other trains down the food chain (which means dumping 158/170s on routes unsuited to their slow acceleration).

Also, any stock intended to work in multiple (with a top speed of under 125mph) should have corridor connections - such a false economy to order them without (given the problems with revenue/checking on routes which need more than a two coach train).

Oh, and ideally, not sign up to the messy route map (with lots of short trains running on long routes) - focus instead on shorter routes and longer trains - allowing much better deployment of the new units.

As far as the EMUs go, in hindsight there are going to be lots of "nearly new" EMUs on the second hand market - so I think that a bigger priority should have been on the DMU fleet (since they could have then bid for things like the 350/2s). But, hindsight, eh...

 

[HSTEd]

As far as the EMUs go, in hindsight there are going to be lots of "nearly new" EMUs on the second hand market - so I think that a bigger priority should have been on the DMU fleet (since they could have then bid for things like the 350/2s). But, hindsight, eh...

Indeed.
Money that was spent on the new electrics could have gone on diesel units, and taken up the 365s, 319s or any number of other relatively modern units.
Hell even the 707s potentially.

 

[Energy]

As far as the EMUs go, in hindsight there are going to be lots of "nearly new" EMUs on the second hand market - so I think that a bigger priority should have been on the DMU fleet (since they could have then bid for things like the 350/2s). But, hindsight, eh...

The franchise needed new trains but I don't think it said electric or diesel/bimode, just new carriages. It made sense for Northern to go for more new EMUs even if they are less desperately needed than DMUs so it fufills the franchise requirement, pure DMUs don't have a long life ahead of them so I doubt the lease is as cheap as an EMU.

 

[D365]

Money that was spent on the new electrics could have gone on diesel units, and taken up the 365s, 319s or any number of other relatively modern units.
Hell even the 707s potentially.

“319” and “relatively modern” do not belong in the same sentence!

 

[Energy]

“319” and “relatively modern” do not belong in the same sentence!

Looking at ASLEF's annoyance towards the lack of aircon (specifically towards the 769s though) and the reliability of the 319s a few months back leaving some services to be double 150s instead, I don't think 319s would be a wise choice.

 

[py_megapixel]

Indeed.
Money that was spent on the new electrics could have gone on diesel units, and taken up the 365s, 319s or any number of other relatively modern units.
Hell even the 707s potentially.

Indeed; there's enough 365s to go around and Northern could have changed the seat covers, slapped in a PRM toilet and some TrainFX, and called it a day. Not as good as new units but better than some of the other refurbs we've seen.
I can't recall if the 365s had air conditioning but given the 165s had air cooling mods recently it could probably have been added to the 365s too.
That along with keeping the not-to-dissimilar (but completely unrelated) 323s and the 331 order could have gone into extending the diesel fleet.

 

[D365]

Indeed; there's enough 365s to go around and Northern could have changed the seat covers, slapped in a PRM toilet and some TrainFX, and called it a day. Not as good as new units but better than some of the other refurbs we've seen.
I can't recall if the 365s had air conditioning but given the 165s had air cooling mods recently it could probably have been added to the 365s too.
That along with keeping the not-to-dissimilar (but completely unrelated) 323s and the 331 order could have gone into extending the diesel fleet.

19 Class 365s spare, would that really have been enough to replace the Class 331 order? (They have fab air cooling - hence the “happy face” mod - but no air con)

Don’t forget though that Porterbrook was anticipating that the Northern Class 323s would end up in the West Midlands. The Class 331s were therefore intended as a partial replacement of the Class 323s.

Hindsight is 20/20 but there was no way of knowing that WMR would end up offloading their entire 323 fleet.

 

[py_megapixel]

19 Class 365s spare, would that really have been enough to replace the Class 331 order? (They have fab air cooling - hence the “happy face” mod - but no air con)

Don’t forget though that Porterbrook was anticipating that the Northern Class 323s would end up in the West Midlands. The Class 331s were therefore intended as a partial replacement of the Class 323s.

Hindsight is 20/20 but there was no way of knowing that WMR would end up offloading their entire 323 fleet.

What about Electrostars?

With 43 331s ordered, we could have had the 29 Greater Anglia 379s, and the 6 c2c 387s, both of which are soon to be withdrawn in favour of Aventras. That gives a total of 35 4-car units, which would probably have been enough assuming that the entire fleet of 323s would come to Northern. Possibly then the 19 365s could have come in to replace the 19 much older 319s giving Northern a much newer electric fleet with more capacity.

So over all the fleet would look like:

29 379s (4 cars)
6 387s (4 cars)
43 323s (3 cars)
19 365s (4 cars)

Giving a total capacity of 97 electric units and a total of 345 carriages. Not too different from the 105 units/319 carriages which are planned.
There would have been enough 319s to fill in for a few years while all these transfers happened.

 

[D365]

What about Electrostars?

With 43 331s ordered, we could have had the 29 Greater Anglia 379s, and the 6 c2c 387s, both of which are soon to be withdrawn in favour of Aventras.

The Northern franchise was awarded in April 2016, with the CAF order having been announced at the same time. The Class 720s were announced in August 2016. Again, there was no way of knowing that the Class 379s would have been made available, nor the Class 323s.

There's no getting away from the fact that, at the time when Northern required modern EMUs, no other options were available in 2016.

 

[py_megapixel]

The Northern franchise was awarded in April 2016, with the CAF order having been announced at the same time. The Class 720s were announced in August 2016. Again, there was no way of knowing that the Class 379s would have been made available, nor the Class 323s.

There's no getting away from the fact that, at the time when Northern required modern EMUs, no other options were available in 2016.

I know; what I'm saying is that with hindsight, hanging on with the 319s for a few more years would have been better. I appreciate that it couldn't have been forseen.

 

[Energy]

Also these EMUs wouldn't have come in time, none of the 379s, 350/2s or 707s has left their operator yet and the last one already has another operator waiting for them.