Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

[Bletchleyite]

You could be an asymptomatic carrier of anything. We've lived with that in the past.

Not generally as dangerous as COVID-19.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes you have, and so many people have explained, clearly and nicely, why this isn't going to happen.

It happened in the past. I still don't see what makes this particular virus so special and different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It happened in the past. I still don't see what makes this particular virus so special and different.

The fact that if left unchecked it overwhelms health systems due to requiring intensive care beds for relatively long periods, primarily. (Ironically if it just caused people to drop dead it would actually cause less issues).

 

[Starmill]

It happened in the past. I still don't see what makes this particular virus so special and different.

For the one hundredth time: because this is a disease which can spread without physical contact by infected people who never experience symptoms. A disease which is as infectious as this and which has patient outcomes as serious as this is by definition different to any other normal health risk assessment.

 

[Journeyman]

The fact that if left unchecked it overwhelms health systems due to requiring intensive care beds for relatively long periods, primarily. (Ironically if it just caused people to drop dead it would actually cause less issues).

You do realise most hospitals in the UK are currently more or less empty?

 

[Starmill]

You do realise most hospitals in the UK are currently more or less empty?

Yes: because we've all been staying at home! What do you think would have happened otherwise!? We also need to restore full capacity for routine health services.

 

[Journeyman]

For the one hundredth time: because this is a disease which can spread without physical contact by infected people who never experience symptoms. A disease which is as infectious as this and which has patient outcomes as serious as this is by definition different to any other normal health risk assessment.

But fairly recently, Hong Kong flu killed 80k people in this country in a year, and we carried on regardless. Again - how is this different?

 

[AM9]

You do realise most hospitals in the UK are currently more or less empty?

OK then, let's bring it on to give the NHS something to do!
Would you be able to tell us where on the risk spectrum you fall?

 

[Starmill]

But fairly recently, Hong Kong flu killed 80k people in this country in a year, and we carried on regardless. Again - how is this different?

Again: in that it isn't a flu.

 

[AM9]

But fairly recently, Hong Kong flu killed 80k people in this country in a year, and we carried on regardless. Again - how is this different?

You could say that we actually learnt something from it, althouigh those who keep quoting it seem not to have and destined not to this time.

 

[Bantamzen]

Nope, still missing the point with those words, I've highlighted the bit that you've got 180 out of phase. You, me and everbody else may be a carrier, none of us know so it is in everybody's interest that people take steps to prevent themselves spreading the virus. You never know, somebody else takes the responsibility seriously and wears a face covering even when it is uncomfortable, inconvenient and makes them look stupid, that might actually save your life. They are considering others' welfare, not themselves, do you not understand?

**Spoiler Alert**

We are carriers of multiple viruses and bacteria. So based on your logic face masks really aren't enough, we really should be locking ourselves in self-contained bubbles, never interacting with a single human being ever again. Sounds like a plan, I mean what could go wrong with that...???

 

[Journeyman]

Yes: because we've all been staying at home! What do you think would have happened otherwise!? We also need to restore full capacity for routine health services.

I know. I'm just pointing out that a gradual easing of lockdown restrictions is unlikely to overrun the capacity of the NHS. Lots of people seem to think that hospitals currently resemble a WW1 casualty handling station, because of the way the media are portraying things. I was just pointing out they don't.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Even past this, the idea of wearing one when you've got a miserable, sniffling cold would make life better for so many people, particularly asthmatics for whom a cold is really no fun at all. Maybe we should adopt that here too? Not in law, obviously, as colds don't generally kill people, but just, you know, to be nice to others?

Not a chance. The vast majority of even pro-mask people don't think they're a good thing - they breed social mistrust (since you can't see others' faces), they have security implications, and they are terrifying to many. That's without mentioning the impacts on those who have hearing difficulties, breathing issues, or merely difficulty interpreting social cues (since they now can't rely on facial expressions). And there's the fact that a crowd of people all wearing masks is completely dystopian - robbing us of our individuality.

As I've said a few times, I can just about stomach mask wearing as a temporary measure. But we cannot allow this to become part of our culture.

 

[MDB1images]

Delete.

 

[Starmill]

I know. I'm just pointing out that a gradual easing of lockdown restrictions is unlikely to overrun the capacity of the NHS. Lots of people seem to think that hospitals currently resemble a WW1 casualty handling station, because of the way the media are portraying things. I was just pointing out they don't.

I don't think people think that at all and I think it's clear that reputable media outlets (e.g. BBC News) have made a point of covering the large number of empty spaces in certain hospitals.

 

[Journeyman]

Not a chance. The vast majority of even pro-mask people don't think they're a good thing - they breed social mistrust (since you can't see others' faces), they have security implications, and they are terrifying to many. That's without mentioning the impacts on those who have hearing difficulties, breathing issues, or merely difficulty interpreting social cues (since they now can't rely on facial expressions). And there's the fact that a crowd of people all wearing masks is completely dystopian - robbing us of our individuality.

As I've said a few times, I can just about stomach mask wearing as a temporary measure. But we cannot allow this to become part of our culture.

This is overwhelmingly why I'm concerned, and why I think compulsion should be resisted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You do realise most hospitals in the UK are currently more or less empty?

Because there are heavy restrictions in place. What would you rather do? Keep them in place for potentially years or forever, or accept the minor inconvenience of wearing a face covering in indoor public settings and have things able to go mostly back to normal?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes, I'm opposed to compulsory use of masks in any and all circumstances. It's a matter of personal choice.

I've already stated that we need to move to a model that allows people to assess their own levels of risk and decide accordingly what they can or can't do.

How would your model work when it comes to an individual assessing the risk, not to themselves, but to those around them? I could see (without fully agreeing with) an argument for letting people decide how much risk to their own life they are prepared to accept. But - are you happy for someone to decide that they don't care about infecting other people, and are therefore not going to take any precautions to prevent those around them from getting infected? Would you be happy to be around such a person?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is overwhelmingly why I'm concerned, and why I think compulsion should be resisted.

I think it would be good if we did make it part of our culture, like most Asians do, to wear a mask when out and about if we have a contagious respiratory infection. You know, to help others. Having a cold is rubbish, how's about we put a little effort in ourselves to preventing others having one too?

 

[Starmill]

The vast majority of even pro-mask people don't think they're a good thing - they breed social mistrust (since you can't see others' faces), they have security implications, and they are terrifying to many. That's without mentioning the impacts on those who have hearing difficulties, breathing issues, or merely difficulty interpreting social cues (since they now can't rely on facial expressions).

I agree with all of these risks to their use. I still think, like you, that nearly everyone in enclosed spaces with other people needs to be wearing one, for now.

 

[Journeyman]

How would your model work when it comes to an individual assessing the risk, not to themselves, but to those around them? I could see (without fully agreeing with) an argument for letting people decide how much risk to their own life they are prepared to accept. But - are you happy for someone to decide that they don't care about infecting other people, and are therefore not going to take any precautions to prevent those around them from getting infected? Would you be happy to be around such a person?

I would never, ever insist on anyone having to wear a mask in public for any reason, and yes, I'm not afraid of being around anyone not wearing one. The world is full of selfish people, but 99.9999999% of them aren't a threat to me.

If you're really concerned about picking the virus up from someone not wearing a mask, I'd suggest fear is your biggest problem, and masks don't even come close to completely eliminating the risk anyway.

 

[LAX54]

It happened in the past. I still don't see what makes this particular virus so special and different.

Social Media and 24/7 News is what the difference is I think

 

[Journeyman]

Social Media and 24/7 News is what the difference is I think

Absolutely. Bombard people with terrifying propaganda 24/7, and it has a terrible effect.

 

[Journeyman]

I think it would be good if we did make it part of our culture, like most Asians do, to wear a mask when out and about if we have a contagious respiratory infection. You know, to help others. Having a cold is rubbish, how's about we put a little effort in ourselves to preventing others having one too?

I cannot emphasise enough how much I profoundly disagree with you. Why not make people ring a bell and shout "UNCLEAN" while we're at it?

 

[Bantamzen]

I think it would be good if we did make it part of our culture, like most Asians do, to wear a mask when out and about if we have a contagious respiratory infection. You know, to help others. Having a cold is rubbish, how's about we put a little effort in ourselves to preventing others having one too?

And if you don't have a contagious respiratory infection?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if you don't have a contagious respiratory infection?

In normal circumstances, then you don't wear one.

In these special circumstances, when there's quite a reasonable chance of you having one but not knowing it, you do.

 

[Llanigraham]

Funny you mention glasses. A face mask with glasses is always so much fun, trying to peer through a steamy fog every time I breathe out.

Sorry, but that suggests that you are incorrectly using a mask, or using the wrong mask.
See the new thread about Hints and Tips

 

[LOM]

We could virtually wipe out the spread of HIV by making it illegal to have sex without using a condom but it is recognised that this would have other negative consequences for society. So we collectively accept the risk of HIV transmission (which is ubiquitous in some parts of Africa) without insisting on evidence based preventative measures. But in the case of this disease we are expected to accept the imposition of universal preventive measures which are not scientifically proven.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I would never, ever insist on anyone having to wear a mask in public for any reason, and yes, I'm not afraid of being around anyone not wearing one. The world is full of selfish people, but 99.9999999% of them aren't a threat to me.

If you're really concerned about picking the virus up from someone not wearing a mask, I'd suggest fear is your biggest problem, and masks don't even come close to completely eliminating the risk anyway.

I see. And, following your logic, would you consider scrapping those pesky laws that destroy people's freedom by making it illegal to drive through towns at 80mph? And would you further tell anyone who's concerned about being run over by an 80mph car that fear is that person's biggest problem?

Oh and... for what it's worth, I'm not massively worried about the virus for myself - I'm not really in any high risk category - I'm just concerned enough to take sensible precautions, and concerned enough to think it's reasonable to expect others to take sensible precautions. But like many people here, I do have elderly/vulnerable friends and relatives who, as far as I'm aware, would quite like to be able to get out and about without having to be concerned about the possibility of getting a virus that could well kill them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We could virtually wipe out the spread of HIV by making it illegal to have sex without using a condom but it is recognised that this would have other negative consequences for society. So we collectively accept the risk of HIV transmission (which is ubiquitous in some parts of Africa) without insisting on evidence based preventative measures. But in the case of this disease we are expected to accept the imposition of universal preventive measures which are not scientifically proven.

Except in the case of rape, which is both illegal and societally unacceptable and rightly so, I can decline to have sex with someone.

I can't decline to have them sit near me on a train or to walk past me in a supermarket.

Therein lies the difference.